Derby vs Fleetwood - Match Thread

[B4ev6is]

Well today performance was a battling one but there was plenty of fight in this performance there was patches of good football I think jake rooney should keep his place and laim Thompson never put a foot wrong all afternoon. And martin got the winning goal and clean sheet but that's all what matters we got the win. But all early doors I just hope warn gets the players he wants in but shame to lose casin. But can not deny the lad to play in the premiership I hope he does well and get a bigger club for a massive fee that we should get money from him.

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

Peterborough dropped 24 points v teams outside the top 10.

Peterborough also had neutral records v six of the top ten including ourselves and three teams in the top 10 did the double over them.

So it was their better record v teams outside the top 10 that swung it because they had an even worse record than us v the top teams, underlining that your argument doesn’t amount to much if teams are more consistent across the board.

 

Your numbers don’t add up.

In the final 10 games of last season, Posh played 5 top half sides - Ipswich, Barnsley, Lincoln, Derby and Shrewsbury. They won four of them, picking up 12 points.

Derby under Paul Warne only won 2 games against top half sides since he became boss - Charlton and Bolton at home.

His record was P15 W2 D6 L7

Rosenior in his nine games in charge played 7 top half sides, winning 3 of them.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Bris Vegas

[Jourdan]

I think we have to take the positives from today. Not the performance or the scoreline, but the ability to grind out a result when expectation is weighing heavily on you and a response is needed.

Last season, in the corresponding fixtures v Burton and Fleetwood, we picked up one point and this season we have picked up six. If we can continue the trend of getting improved results v teams we have struggled against, that bodes well.

I think also looking at how Wigan have gone to Bolton and absolutely demolished them and Oxford have backed up Tuesday night with another good away win v Barnsley, maybe we were too harsh on Warne and the team over recent results.

We have to remember we are just at the time of year where teams are still bedding in and can get caught cold, and perhaps we’ve been caught at a particularly good time (for others).

Everyone will be focusing on the games v Peterborough, Portsmouth and Bolton as a real yardstick for our season, but for me, the biggest, most pressurised games will be Northampton and Cambridge at home and Carlisle away.

Good seasons are built on being able to win the games you are expected to and hopefully we’ll do that and use that as a platform for a positive season, rather than getting too hung up on losses to teams of a similar standard.

[NottsRam77]

8 hours ago, one_chop said:

A very unconvincing win against extremely poor opposition but 3 points is 3 points.

Bar humbug .. enjoy the points 

[Jourdan]

21 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Your numbers don’t add up.

In the final 10 games of last season, Posh played 5 top half sides - Ipswich, Barnsley, Lincoln, Derby and Shrewsbury. They won four of them, picking up 12 points.

Derby under Paul Warne only won 2 games against top half sides since he became boss - Charlton and Bolton at home.

His record was P15 W2 D6 L7

Rosenior in his nine games in charge played 7 top half sides, winning 3 of them.

 

My numbers do add up. They just don’t fit your narrative.

Your point was that we didn’t take enough points from our rivals last season and this is why we didn’t finish higher.

Across the season, we picked up 19 points from 54 v the final top 10. Peterborough picked up 17. Peterborough didn’t have a positive record v anyone in the top 10. We did.

Lincoln finished 11th and Shrewsbury finished 12th - 14 and 17 points behind us respectively. I wouldn’t class them as our rivals last season, would you? Awkward games but never what you would class as a six pointer, hence the cut off was top 10.

We had a superior record to Peterborough v the very top sides last season. Where we really faltered was in the games we were expected to win.

[Bris Vegas]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

My numbers do add up. They just don’t fit your narrative.

Your point was that we didn’t take enough points from our rivals last season and this is why we didn’t finish higher.

Across the season, we picked up 19 points from 54 v the final top 10. Peterborough picked up 17. Peterborough didn’t have a positive record v anyone in the top 10. We did.

Lincoln finished 11th and Shrewsbury finished 12th - 14 and 17 points behind us respectively. I wouldn’t class them as our rivals last season, would you? Awkward games but never what you would class as a six pointer, hence the cut off was top 10.

We had a superior record to Peterborough v the very top sides last season. Where we really faltered was in the games we were expected to win.

My narrative has always been that Warne’s record against the better teams was dire. 

Posh beat Derby, Plymouth, Barnsley, Pompey and Wednesday last season. That’s 15 points right there.

In the same fixtures Warne scored 2 points. 

If Warne has replicated Rosenior’s PPG against the better sides we would have finished in the top six.

The reason we didn’t was because we were awful anytime we played anyone remotely good.

These were the figures of the league table season between the top half only.

Top half teams points tallies vs teams in the top half

Plymouth 43

Ipswich 41

Sheff Wed 39

Barnsley 34

Bolton 33

Charlton 29

Lincoln 28

Posh 26

Wycombe 24

Derby 22 (TEN points under Rosenior)

Pompey 17

Shrewsbury 16

This is the reason why we missed out on the playoffs. And this is what we must rectify this season.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Bris Vegas

[jono]

8 hours ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

Their number 15 was their best player however I’m just glad we won. It makes me happier. I enjoyed Rooney and Thompson’s performances. I thought Forsyth was the best player on the pitch personally. He’s the gift that keeps on giving. 

He was an aggressive effer, wasn’t he ! Very mobile and bustling, throwing himself around, committing niggly fouls around the box and claiming to ref he’d been fouled. Old fashion L1  handful striker. Their No9 bullied us last time round but I think Nelson had his measure yesterday. A good battle between those two.

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I think we have to take the positives from today. Not the performance or the scoreline, but the ability to grind out a result when expectation is weighing heavily on you and a response is needed.

Last season, in the corresponding fixtures v Burton and Fleetwood, we picked up one point and this season we have picked up six. If we can continue the trend of getting improved results v teams we have struggled against, that bodes well.

I think also looking at how Wigan have gone to Bolton and absolutely demolished them and Oxford have backed up Tuesday night with another good away win v Barnsley, maybe we were too harsh on Warne and the team over recent results.

We have to remember we are just at the time of year where teams are still bedding in and can get caught cold, and perhaps we’ve been caught at a particularly good time (for others).

Everyone will be focusing on the games v Peterborough, Portsmouth and Bolton as a real yardstick for our season, but for me, the biggest, most pressurised games will be Northampton and Cambridge at home and Carlisle away.

Good seasons are built on being able to win the games you are expected to and hopefully we’ll do that and use that as a platform for a positive season, rather than getting too hung up on losses to teams of a similar standard.

Think you're being generous to pw there mate.

All of the players listed who have had "good" performances today are not his signings.

We've got a couple of "results" but yet to see any truly convincing performances.

He's had to move away from his favoured system and tactics.

Right at this moment, it's very difficult to see anything that Paul warne has done to improve us.

But on we go. It may just be a metre away from clicking I guess.

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

My narrative has always been that Warne’s record against the better teams was dire. 

Posh beat Derby, Plymouth, Barnsley, Pompey and Wednesday last season. That’s 15 points right there.

In the same fixtures Warne scored 2 points. 

If Warne has replicated Rosenior’s PPG against the better sides we would have finished in the top six.

The reason we didn’t was because we were awful anytime we played anyone remotely good.

These were the figures of the league table season between the top half only.

Top half teams points tallies vs teams in the top half

Plymouth 43

Ipswich 41

Sheff Wed 39

Barnsley 34

Bolton 33

Charlton 29

Lincoln 28

Posh 26

Wycombe 24

Derby 22 (TEN points under Rosenior)

Pompey 17

Shrewsbury 16

This is the reason why we missed out on the playoffs. And this is what we must rectify this season.

This is another of those weird binary arguments that keeps popping up on here and in life in general. Yes there is some truth to what you say, if we had a better record against the “top” sides in the division we’d have finished higher, because we’d have gained more points right? So @Jourdan’s argument is also valid, because if we’d drawn with or beaten some of the “lesser” teams we failed to beat or converted some of the many draws into wins (Shrewsbury home and away, Fleetwood at home, Burton away, Exeter at home, MK Dons at home, Lincoln at home, Burton away) we’d have had a better points tally and finished in the play offs.

We could have had the same record against the “top” sides but gained an extra 16 points by winning instead of drawing the 8 games I mentioned above and we’d comfortably have finished in the play offs. 
All the games count across the whole season, we need to pick up more points than we did last season, against whoever the opponents are.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

This is another of those weird binary arguments that keeps popping up on here and in life in general.

Not to mention that if we’d taken more points against those teams then some of them might not have been top 12 teams themselves so we’d need to count points we’d taken off other teams… basically (as you say) the simplest solution would be to have a brilliant record against all opponents!

(Plus if I’m being a little pedantic to @Bris Vegas’s post, Warne’s team picked up 3 points in the “Posh” fixtures he mentioned: 2 draws v Pompey and a draw v Sheff Wed… yes still miles behind Peterborough in those fixtures, I know, but good to be accurate with the stats one is using as evidence)

[duncanjwitham]

8 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

We could have had the same record against the “top” sides but gained an extra 16 points by winning instead of drawing the 8 games I mentioned above and we’d comfortably have finished in the play offs. 
All the games count across the whole season, we need to pick up more points than we did last season, against whoever the opponents are.

Up until the point you make the playoffs, then you *have* to beat 2 top 6 sides to go up...

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, Ram a lamb a ding dong said:

First 20 minutes excellent. Rest of the half decent.

Second half nervy.

Thought the back 5 were solid.

Thomson added zip and verve

NML in his proper position

Waggy strong and great finish

Small steps

agree with all that except the comment about the defence. If the ball had fallen for fleetwood in our box we’d have lost. That really needs sorting - the top teams will put 2 a game past us if we don’t improve

never thought I’d watch a Fleetwood team and see 3 or 4 players I wish we’d signed

Barkhuizen’s return will give Warne scope for much improvement 

Tommo is still settling down. He’s got excellent vision  let’s hope he grows in confidence 

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

19 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Up until the point you make the playoffs, then you *have* to beat 2 top 6 sides to go up...

Correct. And then that’s a fresh challenge of its own, overcoming the psychological barrier of beating a team you haven’t during the regular season or whatever. But it’s then knockout football and strange things can happen, there’s an evening at Elland Road in the not too distant past that springs to mind. However, I digress.

Bris has a point that Warne needs to improve the results against the better teams. Jourdan also has a point that Warne needs to improve results against other teams also. Which distills into my point that we need to be better across the whole season, as is the case regardless of who the manager is. 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

1 hour ago, jono said:

He was an aggressive effer, wasn’t he ! Very mobile and bustling, throwing himself around, committing niggly fouls around the box and claiming to ref he’d been fouled. Old fashion L1  handful striker. Their No9 bullied us last time round but I think Nelson had his measure yesterday. A good battle between those two.

Their number 15 was the tricky left winger who came on as sub, he wasn’t a striker. Unless my eyes aren’t as good as they used to be. 

[Ram a lamb a ding dong]

Let's be fair Fleetwood either raised their game a few notches or they actually are a half decent unit.

 

[Tyler Durden]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

My narrative has always been that Warne’s record against the better teams was dire. 

This is the reason why we missed out on the playoffs. And this is what we must rectify this season.

No, we missed out on the playoffs last season as we didn't accumulate as many points over the course of the season as the teams occupying those Top 6 places. 

[Caerphilly Ram]

Had a long but good day yesterday, haven’t seen the highlights yet but my summary of the game based on what I saw and my own conclusions is as follows. 
Started the game really well, pace and intent from the kick off. I thought the first Waghorn incident was a pen and wonder if the ref panicked with it being so early in the game.
It looked to be a back 4 from where I was sat in the East stand @rammieib  with them lined up in a 4 and NML playing high on the right, which is why I posted yesterday to try and clarify the shape for other forum members….however there were times when NML dropped in as a rwb and it became a back 5 in defence, seemingly a sort of fluid 4/5 in defence. Then of course the clear change to 3/5 at the back late on.
The defence still looked nervy at times but the 4 worked well for the most part, Rooney was calm and assured considering his limited minutes before yesterday. Nelson and Cashin looked more comfortable as a 2. Fozzy was his typical composed presence, reading the game well and helping that calmness. Elder and Bradley seemed keen to impress when they came on which made for some nervy moments, one example that sticks out was when Elder went to head a lofted pass forward which he was never getting and ended up jumping through two of their players. BUT the defence and Wildsmith did all dig in and they got the clean sheet, even if it wasn’t pretty at times.
Waghorn and Washington showed what they can offer as a forward pairing with running and movement aplenty. Waghorn’s control of Wash’s shot to then turn and finish shows his quality. That’s 2 goals already for him, showing that he will indeed score at this level. Both tired as the game went on with Collins and Sibley putting an effort in when they came on but not quite having the same impact. I think that’s probably a combination of lack of mins for Sibley, and the fact we’d retreated more as the game went on. 

Thompson was everywhere, which I was really pleased with, I’ve said in pre season I thought he’d offer something to this side and think he took his chance with both hands. Apart from the silly booking it was a good all energy performance. Nipping in to win second balls and carry it forward, running and harrying their players, driving forward, and not shirking the physical battle as he was in a constant grind with their 6.  

NML, Smith and Hourihane put in plenty of effort and contributed to lots of nearly moments. NML was dangerous on the right, he first couple of runs nearly led to chances, if we can nail the final ball with him in those positions he’ll be back to scoring and assisting like he was last season. Smith and Hourihane both looked so slow, the intent and effort there to get across the ground but the legs not quite carrying them. A more mobile presence in there with Hourihane changes the side quite quickly I think, with Smith then an option to come on and help see out games/rotate. We need that signing. I think that contributes to our lack of control in games, the midfield is too immobile and gets bypassed at times, easier to see it in person than on ramstv, not slating their effort, just think it’s clear we need more legs in there, not dynamic enough.
In summary, it was a slightly better performance at times on the way to a much needed result, still some of the same worries remain. I think the change to 5 at the back late on was partly due to circumstances (not many options on the bench and wanting to grind out the win) but I’d have much preferred Warne to give the likes of Bardell and Robinson the chance. Robinson could have added some energy to a tired midfield and Bardell a more natural option at rb/rwb than Nelson who definitely got caught tucking in too Central a couple of times. 
However, a day in Derby in the sunshine, a rat burger outside the ground, quality time with my dad, sister and uncle, 3 points and a clean sheet, pretty happy day altogether. 

 

EDIT - forgot to add, the officials were poor. The linesman on this near side looked to take his cue from the ref every time, the NML booking (not seen a replay so could be mistaken) didn’t look like a foul, their bloke span away from NML and hit the deck but the linesman said nothing to the ref despite his clear view. They gave a foul for NML after a great run in which their lb had tried to violently undress the lad the whole way, however the “foul” in truth looked more like NML took out the lb, maybe it was for what had gone before? They just seemed soft and inconsistent throughout, for both sides. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram

[Sussex Ram]

11 hours ago, caymanram said:

After all the emphasis on PW and his fitness regimes etc I find it weird that our players- more so than any of the opposition ones faced thus far - seem so knackered and out on their feet for the last 20 mins or so. 
I don’t see us pressing anywhere near as much as last season as a team ( one or two individuals do) and yet we seem more unfit than other teams. Strange….

I thought this after about 60-70 minutes, as it sounded from Radio Derby that we were increasingly on the back foot. Seeing out a single goal lead becomes easier when the opposition tires and we have better conditioning/stamina. But that didn’t seem to be the case at all, from what I am hearing. In fact, it seemed like they had the upper hand on us in the fitness stakes. Is that a fair assessment? If so, what was the point of all those double and triple sessions in Spain if we can’t use it to our advantage only 4 games into the season?

In fairness, there were a few on the pitch today that didn’t do the Warne preseason, and a few subs who have been injured for a few weeks and therefore not match fit. But if we are going to do the season with such a small squad, we need all our players to be able to do the full 90 (or 100, with added time) without tiring significantly if we want to avoid the inevitable League 1 sucker punch equalisers.

[Mick Brolly]

11 hours ago, caymanram said:

After all the emphasis on PW and his fitness regimes etc I find it weird that our players- more so than any of the opposition ones faced thus far - seem so knackered and out on their feet for the last 20 mins or so. 
I don’t see us pressing anywhere near as much as last season as a team ( one or two individuals do) and yet we seem more unfit than other teams. Strange….

It's not strange we've played 3 games in 8 days with an ageing and small squad 

[Sparkle]

Ok it’s obvious that Rooney and Tompson changed the dynamic of our side yesterday so why did the manager not bother to play them in pre season ? My assumption is that he so fixed on his pre conceived viewpoints he can’t see what’s best for the players we have.