Derby vs Fleetwood - Match Thread

[B4ev6is]

27 minutes ago, RIMBAUD said:

All three bits of your post are wrong.  I like Rooney and Thompson but atm they’re not better. 
 

I hope they do become better than CH. (with dcfc, of course)

Well I disagree with you.

[CBRammette]

57 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

And ref miss pen to derby and he seemed all to keen to book our players not theres.

Exactly

[May Contain Nuts]

56 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

We finished outside of the playoffs by 1 point.
If every other result throughout the season had stayed the same except say away at Bristol Rovers, when we conceded a 95th minute penalty, if we’d held on and won that game we’d have been 2 points better off for the season and finished in the play offs. 
 

Your argument that we need to be better against the better teams makes sense. I agree, we could do with competing more against other teams in the top half. 
BUT we missed out on the play offs because we didn’t accumulate enough points from the WHOLE season. 3 more draws would have put us in the playoffs regardless of who they came against, 2 more wins etc. 

The fact that the team we finished outside of the playoffs and 1 point below was Peterborough highlights Bris' point though.

All other results throughout the season being equal, if we'd managed to beat Peterborough in the away game we'd have finished 2 points above them. Beating the top teams / direct rivals doesn't just give you points, it directly stops them attaining them - that's the point.

We both finished with the same GD (+21) but change out their 2-0 victory for a 1-0 Derby win and we gain an advantage there too, that alone presents a not inconsiderate swing. We could then even afford to drop a couple more points against the 'lesser' teams without it costing us so dearly.

...tbh, all the previous discussion/argument did was point out that Warne's record was even more disappointing last season because not only did we fail to win against the better teams, we fluffed it up against some poorer teams too!

Edited August 20, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[CBRammette]

17 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

The same one who scored last week, has created 8 chances in 3 games and won the ball with a great tackle leading to the only goal yesterday.  Not sure about that one mate, seems harsh.

If @B4ev6is is basing it on set piece delivery alone he has a fair point. It perhaps says a lot about rest of team if he is best at corners in training. Hopefully Waggy will get the chance with some free kicks. However, CH's tackle ahead of the goal yesterday was perfect and his overall play is better than given credit for

[Andicis]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

We missed out on the playoffs because we didn’t accumulate more points against the top 12 teams.

We accumulated more points against the bottom 12 teams than both Bolton and Posh.

 

Had we beaten some of the bottom teams we dropped points against, we would have been in the playoffs. You are hyper fixating on this narrative that you've been parroting since the end of last season, but it doesn't make it any more true the more you say it. 

[Tyler Durden]

I'm just waiting for the flat track bully analogy to get rolled out of the cupboard again then my misery will be complete 

[DavesaRam]

45 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

Had we beaten Morecambe away instead of drawing wouldn’t you agree we would have made the playoffs despite our record against the top 12 teams. Not beating Morecambe was just as relevant.

Yes. And if we had been given all the stonewall penalties which were denied us, and had not had any of the dodgy penalty awards against us, we would have made the automatics. Some have suggested that we are talking of a minimum of 12 - 15 points, plus all those points from games where we threw them away.

[Bris Vegas]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Had we beaten some of the bottom teams we dropped points against, we would have been in the playoffs. You are hyper fixating on this narrative that you've been parroting since the end of last season, but it doesn't make it any more true the more you say it. 

Our record against the bottom teams was better than our playoff rivals.

But you run a dangerous line when you are relying on the bottom teams to beat your rivals if you yourself (Derby under Warne) have an inability to beat your rivals.

We can’t be an in a position where we are relying on favors. We have to do it ourselves.

It’s like Arsenal and Liverpool losing out on the title to Man City. They can’t expect other teams to be beating City and doing them favors. To win the title, they have to match City’s record against the rest and beat City.

Arsenal finished 5 points behind City last season and lost both games against them. You know what would have happened if both games had ended draws? Add two points for Arsenal and subtract four points from City’s total and you have a different outcome.

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

I'd suggest it's fairly important to get points of teams in the top 6 places, as it helps if your needing to get points of them at the end of the season to put you in top 6 and boot them out and you've got more chance of winning over 2 games and a final.  Chances are if they're 3rd or 4th in the table they've probably been pretty consistent against all comers.  Bottom half and top half.  The end game is where the consistency becomes relevant unless the the team your playing has an aberration and s**** their pants on the big occasion .  Even then they have another game to rectify it.

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Our record against the bottom teams was better than our playoff rivals.

But you run a dangerous line when you are relying on the bottom teams to beat your rivals if you yourself (Derby under Warne) have an inability to beat your rivals.

We can’t be an in a position where we are relying on favors. We have to do it ourselves.

It’s like Arsenal and Liverpool losing out on the title to Man City. They can’t expect other teams to be beating City and doing them favors. To win the title, they have to match City’s record against the rest and beat City.

Arsenal finished 5 points behind City last season and lost both games against them. You know what would have happened if both games had ended draws? Add two points for Arsenal and subtract four points from City’s total and you have a different outcome.

 

We wouldn't have been relying on favours if we'd beaten some of the bottom teams we'd dropped points against. That is factual. Our record against the bottom teams was better than playoff rivals, that actually doesn't matter at all. Beating Peterborough and losing to Fleetwood still yields the same number of points ultimately. The "inability to beat your rivals" is also b*******. 

[Wolfie20]

1 hour ago, B4ev6is said:

I would drop hourihane he is passager and lose the ball to easley and puts us into trouble and take captain off him and give to craig Forsyth. 

 

You didn't contact Radio Derby immediately after the game did you. Oh I do hope it wasn't you B4  😟

[Wolfie20]

9 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Our record against the bottom teams was better than our playoff rivals.

But you run a dangerous line when you are relying on the bottom teams to beat your rivals if you yourself (Derby under Warne) have an inability to beat your rivals.

We can’t be an in a position where we are relying on favors. We have to do it ourselves.

It’s like Arsenal and Liverpool losing out on the title to Man City. They can’t expect other teams to be beating City and doing them favors. To win the title, they have to match City’s record against the rest and beat City.

Arsenal finished 5 points behind City last season and lost both games against them. You know what would have happened if both games had ended draws? Add two points for Arsenal and subtract four points from City’s total and you have a different outcome.

 

I don't think anyone is denying the importance of taking points against your main rivals but your inference that failing to do so last season was why we missed out is not the sole reason - one more point against any other team and we'd have made it.

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

7 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

You didn't contact Radio Derby immediately after the game did you. Oh I do hope it wasn't you B4  😟

That when Dawes had a turn and demanded people don't send in negative texts.  He should listen to his own ramblings during a match once in a while.  It's up to him if he reads em but not acceptable to read them and chastise the sender in his position. If no-one sends him texts to moan about, it won't take much for the BBC to send him a P45.  They love local radio at the minute.

[May Contain Nuts]

It's positive results against your rivals that allow you to take your foot off the gas occasionally, be below-par now and then but still achieve your aims.  Not beating your rivals puts added pressure on you not to mess up against the weaker teams.

Of course the results against teams lower down the league should sort of 'look after themselves' but no team goes through a season never dropping points against teams they shouldn't do on paper. You can't rely on that as your strategy as unexpected results are part and parcel of football.

If you're never the team who springs the surprise result, you're always going to be the team who underachieves because you simply can't guarantee you won't be the victim of those surprise results.

If we'd beat Peterborough away it wouldn't have mattered if the 1-1 & 2-2 home draws with Lincoln & Shrewsbury respectively had been narrow defeats, we'd have still make the play-offs ahead of P'Boro

Beat P'Boro and we may even have been able to have given a few players a much needed rest, leading to improved performances from them in resulting games.

[Ambitious]

8 hours ago, jameso said:

I think criteria around playing style and systems might also have been an issue. That said, I'm not sure how Mark Harris wouldn't have fitted into our system!

Mark Harris had a season high goal record of three - he’s matched that this season already. He looked good against us, but him doing well in League One really does highlight the standard we’re playing. 

[nottingram]

59 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

If @B4ev6is is basing it on set piece delivery alone he has a fair point. It perhaps says a lot about rest of team if he is best at corners in training. Hopefully Waggy will get the chance with some free kicks. However, CH's tackle ahead of the goal yesterday was perfect and his overall play is better than given credit for

He has created the most chances out of any player in the division, at least he had before Saturday anyway. Most of those set pieces.

His delivery was a bit off on Saturday but there was still one which bounced around on the line, at the end of the first half I think, which was near enough undefendable.

It would be a slightly weird call, I think, to drop a good set piece threat when we are so bad from open play at the moment. Plus I thought he was everywhere on Saturday in general play anyway.

Edited August 20, 2023 by nottingram

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

The fact that the team we finished outside of the playoffs and 1 point below was Peterborough highlights Bris' point though.

All other results throughout the season being equal, if we'd managed to beat Peterborough in the away game we'd have finished 2 points above them. Beating the top teams / direct rivals doesn't just give you points, it directly stops them attaining them - that's the point.

We both finished with the same GD (+21) but change out their 2-0 victory for a 1-0 Derby win and we gain an advantage there too, that alone presents a not inconsiderate swing. We could then even afford to drop a couple more points against the 'lesser' teams without it costing us so dearly.

...tbh, all the previous discussion/argument did was point out that Warne's record was even more disappointing last season because not only did we fail to win against the better teams, we fluffed it up against some poorer teams too!

I’m not specifically arguing Warne’s record. But it seems Bris is by their own admission. 
I am simply trying to illustrate that it’s not one or the other, both arguments are valid. So yes if we’d improved our record against direct rivals like Peterborough we could have made the play offs, and if we’d picked up more points against lower sides we could also have made the play offs. For me it boils down to a simple mathematical argument about accumulating points wherever possible and we didn’t manage that as best we could last year, I’m hoping that we are able to as the season wears on this year. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Mark Harris had a season high goal record of three - he’s matched that this season already. He looked good against us, but him doing well in League One really does highlight the standard we’re playing. 

He's still young, has been a Championship player for the last 3 seasons, was good enough to get to the World Cup (yes I know Wales doesn't have amazing strength in depth), is tenacious, appears to have a finish on him. Since he was up for grabs, someone had to take a punt on him to test a hunch he'd do well in League One. So far it looks like a pretty good call by Oxford.

[B4ev6is]

1 hour ago, Wolfie20 said:

You didn't contact Radio Derby immediately after the game did you. Oh I do hope it wasn't you B4  😟

No 

I not done that in a while

[europia]

On 19/08/2023 at 18:04, SSD said:

Stopped the rot. That's as positive as I can be sadly about that performance.

Yes that sort of sums it up with three crucial points gained. They hit the woodwork twice, so a draw wouldn't have been unfair. So I guess that's about our level at the moment. New signings will only make a difference if they are better than what we currently have in the squad. A bit of imagination and smart thinking required from the recruitment team.