Embargo.

[G STAR RAM]

50 minutes ago, Rev said:

Nail on the head Jono, it's hard to compete at this level.

What we need to do is find a sustainable way of competing, and if that means us dropping down the league's I'll take it.

Do we need a Cat 1 academy, it's not helped us cling onto young talent so far, has it, so is it worth the investment?

Do we need to pay weekly wages in excess of 5 figures? 

The free agents we've signed on half that look good business, so far.

I'm not bothered who we play, in whatever league, all I follow is Derby.

If clubs like Luton and Barnsley can live within their means at this level, our larger fanbase should at least offer us the same opportunity.

Maybe given time we'll have a Springer of a season, and compete towards the top end of the Championship, maybe we'll be forever a Lg1 or 2 team, who knows, but at the very least we'd be able to know they'll be a team to support going forwards, which is not the case at the moment.

Just took a look at the Barnsley and Luton finances. 

Barnsley made a small loss after selling 2 of their players for circa £3m.

Luton made a £3m profit after player sales of £9m, so would have made a £6m loss without. Interestingly they made a sizeable loss the season before in League One too.

Having to sell your best players to break even is a model that relies heavily on either your academy, or recruiting players that can be sold on at a profit.

Its not really a sustainable model as 1 or 2 bad years in the academy or recruiting can leave you in the brown smelly stuff. 

Until all clubs that sustainability will only be achieved through driving wages we are going to see clubs suffer financially year after year.

[RadioactiveWaste]

The model for Championship football is "you'll get tons of money if you make it to the premier league" which is obviously not a healthy one. The only alternative model is "accept you are a lower league club, and have lower league players or sell to fund" - there's not a model for competetive and sustainable. Even the much lauded Bretford were on a sell to fund model, they made it work, but you can't run a whole system on the basis of everyone selling to everyone else, Brentofrd only made it work by selling to clubs chancing on the premier league dream, if every other club was trying to pull the same as Brentford, the market wouldnt be what it was for Brentofrd.

The economics of football are hopeless, the championship is a good example of how broken they are, and DCFC are an example of what happens if you fail. Take all the moral hand wringing out of it (for i do believe a lot of it is partizan and somewhat flexible), Derby's main crime was to fail. If we'd succeeded apart from a few grumbles, we'd have been welcomed to the Prem and talk would only be of the team that did it.

 

 

 

[duncanjwitham]

34 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

or recruiting players that can be sold on at a profit.

Which is considerably more difficult now you can’t really import cheap European players.

[ilkleyram]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Which is considerably more difficult now you can’t really import cheap European players.

Is a good point, though you do appear to be able to import (very) expensive European players and players from further afield to expensive clubs.

But, I wonder whether making it harder to import cheaper European players actually makes our academy more economically viable on the basis that younger UK players become even more valuable just because they are from the UK? Uefa regulations about the numbers of UK players in a squad help too - so Scott Carson and Lee Grant (and Grealish) have a value beyond their actual ability just because they are not European. 

[jono]

11 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

The model for Championship football is "you'll get tons of money if you make it to the premier league" which is obviously not a healthy one. The only alternative model is "accept you are a lower league club, and have lower league players or sell to fund" - there's not a model for competetive and sustainable. Even the much lauded Bretford were on a sell to fund model, they made it work, but you can't run a whole system on the basis of everyone selling to everyone else, Brentofrd only made it work by selling to clubs chancing on the premier league dream, if every other club was trying to pull the same as Brentford, the market wouldnt be what it was for Brentofrd.

The economics of football are hopeless, the championship is a good example of how broken they are, and DCFC are an example of what happens if you fail. Take all the moral hand wringing out of it (for i do believe a lot of it is partizan and somewhat flexible), Derby's main crime was to fail. If we'd succeeded apart from a few grumbles, we'd have been welcomed to the Prem and talk would only be of the team that did it.

 

 

 

Such a great analysis. You’re right. It really is that simple.

The flaw in the system is the wages. Certainly Covid will have put a brake on them but the flaw is still there. How can players in an industry (lower league football) get paid like super executives in world leading businesses. It’s wrong. The industry isn’t financially successful so what justifies the wages ? I guess it’s gambling with money you don’t have or egos feeding egos. 

I don’t like the idea of salary caps but in a warped situation we simply have to have some sort of logical control system. Wages budget related to attendance ? Or a percentage of turnover / actual sales ? Do that and everything falls in to place
 

It must be possible to devise a loophole free calculation that all can abide by. Prem contracts simply must have an inviolable relegation clause built in, meaning parachute payments become unnecessary or get given as a grant to all championship clubs based on finishing position. 

[Premier ram]

Absolutely sick of this now , EFL, if you are going to punish us then do it , stop this bullshite of adding more and more to the charge sheet and give us your best shot , as for Mel , pay what you owe and stop making the job so hard for Wayne , his staff and the players and also EFL and Mel the fans are suffering with all this crap that no one can make any sense out of , but i dont suppose we come into either of your thoughts , one very fed up Rams fan

[Rambalin]

8 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

Absolutely sick of this now , EFL, if you are going to punish us then do it , stop this bullshite of adding more and more to the charge sheet and give us your best shot , as for Mel , pay what you owe and stop making the job so hard for Wayne , his staff and the players and also EFL and Mel the fans are suffering with all this crap that no one can make any sense out of , but i dont suppose we come into either of your thoughts , one very fed up Rams fan

If the EFL felt the could apply any punishment without fear of push back they would have done it by now. 

If they keep us under these charges the chances of us breaching one or another so there can be no question on the legality of the sanction increases with each passing day. 

[ilkleyram]

5 hours ago, jono said:

Such a great analysis. You’re right. It really is that simple.

The flaw in the system is the wages. Certainly Covid will have put a brake on them but the flaw is still there. How can players in an industry (lower league football) get paid like super executives in world leading businesses. It’s wrong. The industry isn’t financially successful so what justifies the wages ? I guess it’s gambling with money you don’t have or egos feeding egos. 

I don’t like the idea of salary caps but in a warped situation we simply have to have some sort of logical control system. Wages budget related to attendance ? Or a percentage of turnover / actual sales ? Do that and everything falls in to place
 

It must be possible to devise a loophole free calculation that all can abide by. Prem contracts simply must have an inviolable relegation clause built in, meaning parachute payments become unnecessary or get given as a grant to all championship clubs based on finishing position. 

Wages is certainly the major area of concern but there are too many competing interests and so little leadership around in football authorities to make control of it the solution.

[ilkleyram]

Pressed send too soon!

the PFA won’t - we'Ve already seen - be interested in any wage limiting solutions; clubs in the money in the PL or with parachute payments won't be interested; players themselves won't be; TV won’t be if it leads to the best players going elsewhere or on strike; no Government of any colour will force it even if the law allowed them to; the conflict won’t be in the interests of Uefa, the Fa, the PL, or the EFL and in any case each of those organisations have competing interests and goals never mind feeble leaderships.

All in all it’s the logical path but one which no one will follow past the first handwringing step

 

[jono]

9 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

Pressed send too soon!

the PFA won’t - we'Ve already seen - be interested in any wage limiting solutions; clubs in the money in the PL or with parachute payments won't be interested; players themselves won't be; TV won’t be if it leads to the best players going elsewhere or on strike; no Government of any colour will force it even if the law allowed them to; the conflict won’t be in the interests of Uefa, the Fa, the PL, or the EFL and in any case each of those organisations have competing interests and goals never mind feeble leaderships.

All in all it’s the logical path but one which no one will follow past the first handwringing step

 

Of course you’re right;  but in a sense isn’t FFP and P + S a wage cap by another name ?  … and one with far too many holes due to its complex make up. 
 

For me … something linked to gate receipts. It’s performance related pay isn’t it ?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

The bit I don't get is that although there are large rewards in the PL the costs are equally high. Bournemouth lost £94 million over two years. Is it worth going up? 

Edited September 6, 2021 by The Scarlet Pimpernel

[Ram-a-lama fa fa fa]

Just now, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The bit I don't get is that although there are large rewards in the PL the costs are equally high. Bournemouth lost £94 million over two years. Is it worth going up? 

in my experience of being a Derby fan. the journey of getting to the top division is far more enjoyable than what happens when we’re there!

[cheron85]

13 minutes ago, Ram-a-lama fa fa fa said:

in my experience of being a Derby fan. the journey of getting to the top division is far more enjoyable than what happens when we’re there!

I have to assume you're younger than I am otherwise you would have this indelibly engraved on the backs of your eyelids

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The bit I don't get is that although there are large rewards in the PL the costs are equally high. Bournemouth lost £94 million over two years. Is it worth going up? 

I think that this is where Mels investment in the academy may be helpful. 

Bournemouth have no infrastructure to speak of and so are entirely dependent on recruitment and moreover, have no historical brand so are doomed to pay top dollar. 

I think Mel was probably betting on promotion creating a "virtuous circle" whereby we attract better youth into the academy, grow better players and either reduce our dependency on recruitment or create more revenue or both.... 

[Sparkle]

4 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The bit I don't get is that although there are large rewards in the PL the costs are equally high. Bournemouth lost £94 million over two years. Is it worth going up? 

We shouldn’t concern ourselves with that option for a while 

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I think that this is where Mels investment in the academy may be helpful. 

Bournemouth have no infrastructure to speak of and so are entirely dependent on recruitment and moreover, have no historical brand so are doomed to pay top dollar. 

I think Mel was probably betting on promotion creating a "virtuous circle" whereby we attract better youth into the academy, grow better players and either reduce our dependency on recruitment or create more revenue or both.... 

with just half the money back for all that lot we wasted money on and we wouldn’t be anywhere near having a major problem.

[Yani P]

Bournemouth did a Derby with a huge kitty of money to play with.. they bought plenty of dross for eye watering sums..

[GenBr]

5 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The bit I don't get is that although there are large rewards in the PL the costs are equally high. Bournemouth lost £94 million over two years. Is it worth going up? 

The costs don't have to be high. Spend nothing when you go up and you'll still earn an extra £200 mill of revenue even if you finish bottom. You'd also be allowed to lose more money when it comes to ffp when you came down.

It is definitely worth it unless your club is run by a bunch of morons. 

[Yani P]

Burnley played it well..small club but went up and down to attempt to build a model that could survive in the Prem..Palace another small club that have spent many seasons now in the Prem..

[angieram]

8 hours ago, Yani P said:

Burnley played it well..small club but went up and down to attempt to build a model that could survive in the Prem..Palace another small club that have spent many seasons now in the Prem..

Would you want to watch Burnley or Crystal Palace (Zaha excepted) every week though? 

No thanks.