Embargo.

[duncanjwitham]

4 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

agree with everything you say. I did look at the decision again and I had slightly misremembered it. The LAP suggested they would have found our method to be un - systematic if they had considered it. But their rules of evidence stopped them from doing that (84, 85)  Seems completely unnecessary for them to include that as part of their decision. I think the result was driven less by the FRS102 analysis and more by a desire to avoid the accounting free for all that would have broken out had we won. Nor did it help our case that the LAP thought we were shabby

I might be reading too much into it, but it seems to me that the DC took the approach of "we're all accountants here, let's just talk through what you're doing and see if it's okay", whereas the LAP took the opposite approach - "this is a legal court, for legal matters, you must prove every thing you're doing is legal from first principles".  That's where the weird disconnect between the 2 reports comes from. The DC one is accountants talking to each other, the LAP is the lawyers getting sniffy because they don't understand what's being talked about and don't like being made to look stupid by asking.

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

I might be reading too much into it, but it seems to me that the DC took the approach of "we're all accountants here, let's just talk through what you're doing and see if it's okay", whereas the LAP took the opposite approach - "this is a legal court, for legal matters, you must prove every thing you're doing is legal from first principles".  That's where the weird disconnect between the 2 reports comes from. The DC one is accountants talking to each other, the LAP is the lawyers getting sniffy because they don't understand what's being talked about and don't like being made to look stupid by asking.

I think that's right. The accountants didn't see a problem , apart from the EFL one who was not actually a practising accountant.

The penalty points for the consequences of the amortisation policy are now unavoidable, which is silly as we gained no advantage from that policy, and it may well have been within the rules anyway. Derby are at fault for not making themselves bullet proof on this. 

 

[CBRammette]

13 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I think that's right. The accountants didn't see a problem , apart from the EFL one who was not actually a practising accountant.

The penalty points for the consequences of the amortisation policy are now unavoidable, which is silly as we gained no advantage from that policy, and it may well have been within the rules anyway. Derby are at fault for not making themselves bullet proof on this. 

 

That's exactly it, if you deviate from the usual way of doing something you expect to be questioned and have all your evidence lined up ready. Well thats what normal people do in business!!

[Van der MoodHoover]

49 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

That's exactly it, if you deviate from the usual way of doing something you expect to be questioned and have all your evidence lined up ready. Well thats what normal people do in business!!

As all Boards in business do challenge their management to demonstrate what they do is consistent with the market.... 

[kevinhectoring]

17 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

I think that's right. The accountants didn't see a problem , apart from the EFL one who was not actually a practising accountant.

The penalty points for the consequences of the amortisation policy are now unavoidable, which is silly as we gained no advantage from that policy, and it may well have been within the rules anyway. Derby are at fault for not making themselves bullet proof on this. 

 

Seems quite likely that with MM off the scene discussions with the EFL will be constructive. EFL will know there is some basis for appealing the 12 points for administration. So hopefully they will do a decent deal on FFP which will clean the slate. Maybe 16 in total ? If other clubs suffer deductions it’s not impossible we could stay up despite that, if we strengthen in January. 

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Seems quite likely that with MM off the scene discussions with the EFL will be constructive. EFL will know there is some basis for appealing the 12 points for administration. So hopefully they will do a decent deal on FFP which will clean the slate. Maybe 16 in total ? If other clubs suffer deductions it’s not impossible we could stay up despite that, if we strengthen in January. 

I prefer this positive approach, we are Derby County and we must seek that little glimmer of light (however microscopic) at the end of this long and lonely tunnel. The actions of Gibson etc may well turn the spotlight on others and may assist our fight for survival ??????Said as much to some of the boys prior to the Stoke game and hope I’m proven correct ???????

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Seems quite likely that with MM off the scene discussions with the EFL will be constructive. EFL will know there is some basis for appealing the 12 points for administration. So hopefully they will do a decent deal on FFP which will clean the slate. Maybe 16 in total ? If other clubs suffer deductions it’s not impossible we could stay up despite that, if we strengthen in January. 

When you think of it that way - if they give us a full 12 or even the rumoured 9 - for what wasn't really a clear cut breach -  that leaves a lot of room for other clubs getting deductions for whatever minor misdemeanours they have.

And you may think the EFL won't want to be dishing out multiple points deductions (as that shines a spotlight on how daft and inconsistent their rules are) but if the other clubs get a sniff of potentially staying up if they can push for deductions against say, 2 other clubs on the basis of "well if what Derby did was worth a 12 point deduction then..."

Could get interesting

[RoyMac5]

20 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

When you think of it that way - if they give us a full 12 or even the rumoured 9 - for what wasn't really a clear cut breach -  that leaves a lot of room for other clubs getting deductions for whatever minor misdemeanours they have.

And you may think the EFL won't want to be dishing out multiple points deductions (as that shines a spotlight on how daft and inconsistent their rules are) but if the other clubs get a sniff of potentially staying up if they can push for deductions against say, 2 other clubs on the basis of "well if what Derby did was worth a 12 point deduction then..."

Could get interesting

Lets hope that Keiran Maguire feels like sticking his big oar in again - why should he just hassle us!

[jono]

It’s the unknown supplementary deductions that bother me - allied to when they will be applied. I can’t help feeling (because I am an old cynic) that the size and timing of further penalties will depend on how many points we score in the next 10 games or so. If it looks like we are in with a fighting chance then we’ll get them sooner; if we are looking doomed they’ll save them and hit us again next season 

[Crewton]

Oh the bleedin' irony of Rick Parry saying player amortisation didn't put us into Administration and then proposing to take it out of P&S calculations. I'm sure the 100,000s we spent on lawyers for the last two years had no impact on our cash position nor that the points deductions specifically relating to amortisation hanging over us affected chances of a sale, Rick......

[PendineRam]

That's my worry too, Jono!

Birch said it could take some time to resolve!! Mmmmm..... 

 

[Sparkle]

5 hours ago, jono said:

It’s the unknown supplementary deductions that bother me - allied to when they will be applied. I can’t help feeling (because I am an old cynic) that the size and timing of further penalties will depend on how many points we score in the next 10 games or so. If it looks like we are in with a fighting chance then we’ll get them sooner; if we are looking doomed they’ll save them and hit us again next season 

They want us to carry on trying so they can say the league is competitive before they put the final nails in the coffin with further point deductions - having a club relagated in September is pathetic look caused mainly by the EFL - sure MM has made a mess but we would have been sold off a year ago 

[PistoldPete]

19 hours ago, Crewton said:

Oh the bleedin' irony of Rick Parry saying player amortisation didn't put us into Administration and then proposing to take it out of P&S calculations. I'm sure the 100,000s we spent on lawyers for the last two years had no impact on our cash position nor that the points deductions specifically relating to amortisation hanging over us affected chances of a sale, Rick......

What? Our points deduction negotiations? Like it hasn’t already taken long has it?

[brady1993]

21 hours ago, jono said:

It’s the unknown supplementary deductions that bother me - allied to when they will be applied. I can’t help feeling (because I am an old cynic) that the size and timing of further penalties will depend on how many points we score in the next 10 games or so. If it looks like we are in with a fighting chance then we’ll get them sooner; if we are looking doomed they’ll save them and hit us again next season 

From a cynical power dynamic perspective it makes sense for them to really make an example of us. It basically sends out the following messages:

• No club is big enough to be sent down and we can make sure you get sent down if we want to 
• Not only do you need to abide by the letter of the rules but the spirit of the rules or else we will retroactively punish you
• Take your punishment on the chin early or else we will drag this out and make it extremely painful for you

My hope is adminstration, MM out of the picture and a relegation is enough to sate them though and we can start next year with a clean slate.

[Wignall12]

22 hours ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I prefer this positive approach, we are Derby County and we must seek that little glimmer of light (however microscopic) at the end of this long and lonely tunnel. The actions of Gibson etc may well turn the spotlight on others and may assist our fight for survival ??????Said as much to some of the boys prior to the Stoke game and hope I’m proven correct ???????

Including his own club ? .......how ironic would that be ? , not to mention rather hilarious !!

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

1 hour ago, Wignall12 said:

Including his own club ? .......how ironic would that be ? , not to mention rather hilarious !!

If only, that would be the ultimate result for me ??????

[BucksRam]

53 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

If only, that would be the ultimate result for me ??????

I suspect not just you, probably a large proportion of this forum would have more than a chuckle if that were to happen. 

[Woodypecker]

5 hours ago, brady1993 said:

From a cynical power dynamic perspective it makes sense for them to really make an example of us. It basically sends out the following messages:

• No club is big enough to be sent down and we can make sure you get sent down if we want to 
• Not only do you need to abide by the letter of the rules but the spirit of the rules or else we will retroactively punish you
• Take your punishment on the chin early or else we will drag this out and make it extremely painful for you

My hope is administration, MM out of the picture and a relegation is enough to sate them though and we can start next year with a clean slate.

People are realising that the EFL are on a hiding now in the media, as the focus turns towards how 'big' clubs like Derby fall into the mire.

Birch and Parry are being pressed to explain and act regarding the fiasco of increasing financial losses, with the scale of income-to-expenditure of Championship clubs (they are spending 120% of income!) and the vast disparity between parachute and non-parachute clubs.

DCFC may be the tip of the iceberg for the clueless committees to navigate, and the Premier League will send a two-word response for EFL requests to sit round a table and renegotiate the meagre 9% of income that the EFL receive from the Prem. The reply will be on gold-embossed letterhead and will read, simply, "---- Off".

My pic shows the EFL committee assembling to discuss Football League financial concerns.

[Grumpy Git]

1 minute ago, Woodypecker said:

People are realising that the EFL are on a hiding now in the media, as the focus turns towards how 'big' clubs like Derby fall into the mire.

Birch and Parry are being pressed to explain and act regarding the fiasco of increasing financial losses, with the scale of income-to-expenditure of Championship clubs (they are spending 120% of income!) and the vast disparity between parachute and non-parachute clubs.

DCFC may be the tip of the iceberg for the clueless committees to navigate, and the Premier League will send a two-word response for EFL requests to sit round a table and renegotiate the meagre 9% of income that the EFL receive from the Prem. The reply will be on gold-embossed letterhead and will read, simply, "---- Off".

My pic shows the EFL committee assembling to discuss Football League financial concerns.

Gibson third-left?