Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[CBRammette]

3 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

MSD might lend more to fund salaries. Also I think the administrator can borrow to fund company costs if it makes sense to do that, and if he does the lender gets a prior claim

if players contracts are not adopted, yes I’d think those players will become free agents. They are free of contract 

I don’t think the suspended 3 point penalty would apply where contracts are not adopted, so long as salaries are paid to termination. But not at all sure 

I’d guess the requirement to pay football debts in full applies to football debts as they fall due. In other words, you could still pay in instalments so long as you keep them current.  

So reading comments on Wigan fans crowd funding do we know whether Sept's wages can be paid by the club from season ticket money or other tv income etc received?  I assume only administrators can answer? If no other funds possible how much would have to be found each month? Does anyone have the slightest idea? Its already the 20th which doesnt leave long to avoid another 3 point deduction for late wages? Even if we wanted to try and do something we would need clarity as to what. Again why announce position Friday when close to pay-day?

[Mckram]

Erik Alonso is back…

[EraniosSocks]

4 minutes ago, Mckram said:

Erik Alonso is back…

[RadioactiveWaste]

5 minutes ago, Mckram said:

Erik Alonso is back…

I thought the one decent thing the EFL had done was save us from this guy and his shady mates?

[Heisenberg]

The latest from John Percy reports that MSD will have a big say who the administrators will be and that any takeover could take up to 2 months to materialise.

There is also a number of interested parties waiting to make their move, apparently.

[kevinhectoring]

1 minute ago, Heisenberg said:

The latest from John Percy reports that MSD will have a big say who the administrators will be and that any takeover could take up to 2 months to materialise.

There is also a number of interested parties waiting to make their move, apparently.

Question is whether MSD, the club and a potential purchaser would be able to persuade a court to extend the two week ‘notice of intention’ period. It may be possible to extend if a takeover is imminent. 
 

If the party who walked away last week was at an advanced stage of due diligence, they might be able to move quite quickly 

[SamUltraRam]

We need people still employed in the ticket office to do things like sell match tickets or post them out etc

This is just to keep revenue rolling in

I imagine we won't be selling season tickets anymore though ?

[Gaspode]

4 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

We need people still employed in the ticket office to do things like sell match tickets or post them out etc

This is just to keep revenue rolling in

I imagine we won't be selling season tickets anymore though ?

Which makes the timing of the administration annoucement all the more galling. They've been pushing the seaons ticket sales and membership deals, got many thousands of people to stump up their cash and then announce the future of the club is in doubt. If it wasn't good old 'Uncle Mel' in charge, people might see it as the cynical act of an owner that doesn't give a stuff about the ordinary fans losing out as long as he can recoup some of his millions....

[SamUltraRam]

So what revenue can we still get

1) Match tickets

2) Sponsors money ?

3) TV Money - but I don't know how Sky pay this, is it monthly or quarterly. I just hope they didn't pay it up front

There's still a lot of potential turnover possible, to keep the club running, but obviously this ignores the creditors

Edited September 20, 2021 by SamUltraRam

[Rev]

32 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

So what revenue can we still get

1) Match tickets

2) Sponsors money ?

3) TV Money - but I don't know how Sky pay this, is it monthly or quarterly. I just hope they didn't pay it up front

There's still a lot of potential turnover possible, to keep the club running, but obviously this ignores the creditors

I assume they do pay up front, hence the need for a rebate when Covid struck.

Even if they didn't, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd already taken a loan out on the anticipated income.

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this. 
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in ??
 

Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on  

 

Sheep Dip Update: (Please note the comments are my opinion based on information that I have been receiving since 2019 and dictate a series of events that have been divulged to me. Despite the accuracies, I have made sum assumptions on the alleged intentions of the actions and these will likely differ from the actual events) 
You may have to re-read my old posts about the position Derby was in and I am sure Wayne can bring them back up if you wish to read back?
Generally though, there is no point on going on what has been said as it is all now out and with Mel’s interview today finally admitting that they are in Breach of FFP for all of the years the accounts haven’t been submitted properly, which covers the 3 years accounts 2015 – 2018/ 2018-2019 & 2019-2020. This would indicate 3 separate FFP punishments, but I will touch on that a little later. 
My understanding is that over the recent months after the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs. 
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples – they simply could not explain. The EFL provided a final extension of 7 days for them to supply the acceptable accounts or face a points penalty. 
The EFL went back to the arbitration panel and were told that if this was not complied with, they could have the points penalty they originally demanded through the hearing. I am guessing Derby were notified of this around the same time. As a result of this, all of the previous delaying tactics and alleged deliberate moves to push the can down the road (so to speak) were no longer possible and the EFL patience would finally be realised. 
I have said for a while Administration was on the cards, however, I have been told that how the debt is structured with the club, it is unlikely administration will have much impact. I have also had the benefit to see higher level financials provided by a party involved in the potential takeover through an NDA and it isn’t pretty. 
In respect of the club moving forward this is what I understand as now. 
Penalty Points Being Faced:. 
• 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate. 
• 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages. 
• 12 Points for administration. 
• 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts. 
• 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 – 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 – 2019 Accounts
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 – 2020 Accounts.
The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga. 
It appeared they continued with this ritual of trying to re-write the rules to suit their overspending in order to avoid the inevitable punishments in expectation that promotion would mean they could have got away with a fine. (QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it) FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby.
There are many comments from Derby fans claiming the club can take the EFL to court. This is not possible. The EFL are the jurisdiction on the rules of the football league, the courts have no jurisdiction. The accounts may well have been compliant legally for companies law, but this has no bearing on the rules of the football league. Clubs agree to compliance to the rules, it is in their articles of association.
What Next?
Morris and Derby have pretty much burnt their bridges at Derby and the announcement blaming the EFL for administration didn’t go down too well. Despite the administration I would expect the EFL to make an example of them and I expect the club will see a series of points deducted over the next two seasons (as reported in the Star) to have the maximum effect. IF the club is still here. 
Derby are now a club whom don’t own their stadium – MSD whom had the loan charge on it will have taken ownership of the company. There is a charge on the training ground also and the ownership of that will revert to the lenders. It would be my expectation that lenders will want to dispose of ASAP and will not care to whom or for what. This leaves a football club with a barebones staff, no training ground and no stadium of ownership and with guaranteed League 1 football next season with a possibility of League 2 the season after. It is going to need a miracle or a seriously generous benefactor to survive. 
My own opinion on Mel Morris – I think he is an abhorrent character, whom dodged the stadium valuation by trying to justify what other clubs are doing. He refuses to take responsibility for the way he ran Derby and continues to this day to mention Forest in order to deflect the goings on at Derby. He says this because he thinks their fans are stupid and it will garner support. M&P have run the club to the point of oblivion and have been constantly telling fans what they think they want to hear, rather than the actual goings on. Derby do have the potential to survive, the club has a healthy income driven by the enthusiastic and loyal fanbase it maybe that it rises through another phoenix club or the administrators work absolute wonders with the current debts. Although upon reading Nixon’s tweet about the administrators, that sounds like that comes from the PR Spin of M&P again….

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this. 
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in ??
 

Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on  

Why? Who is it from, they know no more than we fans and in some cases less!

[Spanish]

4 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this. 
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in ??
 

Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on  

 

Sheep Dip Update: (Please note the comments are my opinion based on information that I have been receiving since 2019 and dictate a series of events that have been divulged to me. Despite the accuracies, I have made sum assumptions on the alleged intentions of the actions and these will likely differ from the actual events) 
You may have to re-read my old posts about the position Derby was in and I am sure Wayne can bring them back up if you wish to read back?
Generally though, there is no point on going on what has been said as it is all now out and with Mel’s interview today finally admitting that they are in Breach of FFP for all of the years the accounts haven’t been submitted properly, which covers the 3 years accounts 2015 – 2018/ 2018-2019 & 2019-2020. This would indicate 3 separate FFP punishments, but I will touch on that a little later. 
My understanding is that over the recent months after the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs. 
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples – they simply could not explain. The EFL provided a final extension of 7 days for them to supply the acceptable accounts or face a points penalty. 
The EFL went back to the arbitration panel and were told that if this was not complied with, they could have the points penalty they originally demanded through the hearing. I am guessing Derby were notified of this around the same time. As a result of this, all of the previous delaying tactics and alleged deliberate moves to push the can down the road (so to speak) were no longer possible and the EFL patience would finally be realised. 
I have said for a while Administration was on the cards, however, I have been told that how the debt is structured with the club, it is unlikely administration will have much impact. I have also had the benefit to see higher level financials provided by a party involved in the potential takeover through an NDA and it isn’t pretty. 
In respect of the club moving forward this is what I understand as now. 
Penalty Points Being Faced:. 
• 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate. 
• 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages. 
• 12 Points for administration. 
• 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts. 
• 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 – 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 – 2019 Accounts
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 – 2020 Accounts.
The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga. 
It appeared they continued with this ritual of trying to re-write the rules to suit their overspending in order to avoid the inevitable punishments in expectation that promotion would mean they could have got away with a fine. (QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it) FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby.
There are many comments from Derby fans claiming the club can take the EFL to court. This is not possible. The EFL are the jurisdiction on the rules of the football league, the courts have no jurisdiction. The accounts may well have been compliant legally for companies law, but this has no bearing on the rules of the football league. Clubs agree to compliance to the rules, it is in their articles of association.
What Next?
Morris and Derby have pretty much burnt their bridges at Derby and the announcement blaming the EFL for administration didn’t go down too well. Despite the administration I would expect the EFL to make an example of them and I expect the club will see a series of points deducted over the next two seasons (as reported in the Star) to have the maximum effect. IF the club is still here. 
Derby are now a club whom don’t own their stadium – MSD whom had the loan charge on it will have taken ownership of the company. There is a charge on the training ground also and the ownership of that will revert to the lenders. It would be my expectation that lenders will want to dispose of ASAP and will not care to whom or for what. This leaves a football club with a barebones staff, no training ground and no stadium of ownership and with guaranteed League 1 football next season with a possibility of League 2 the season after. It is going to need a miracle or a seriously generous benefactor to survive. 
My own opinion on Mel Morris – I think he is an abhorrent character, whom dodged the stadium valuation by trying to justify what other clubs are doing. He refuses to take responsibility for the way he ran Derby and continues to this day to mention Forest in order to deflect the goings on at Derby. He says this because he thinks their fans are stupid and it will garner support. M&P have run the club to the point of oblivion and have been constantly telling fans what they think they want to hear, rather than the actual goings on. Derby do have the potential to survive, the club has a healthy income driven by the enthusiastic and loyal fanbase it maybe that it rises through another phoenix club or the administrators work absolute wonders with the current debts. Although upon reading Nixon’s tweet about the administrators, that sounds like that comes from the PR Spin of M&P again….

I don't know how he has come up with the breaches based on the interview, he only mentioned £4m breach in a single year.  The stadium sale would have covered 3 of the 3 year cycles I think

[Stive Pesley]

9 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga. 

If that's true - then why? None of these points deductions punish MM and SP - they both just walk away from the smoking wreckage

It only punishes the fans. That's what really stinks.

 

[Red Ram]

Apologies if this has already been posted. It's impossible to keep up with all the threads at the moment but this is essential listening.

The Price of Football - Derby County in administration

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/Derby-county-in-administration/id1482886394?i=1000535953160

One thing that stands out. The HRMC filed a winding up order against the club in January 2020, which was at the start of the pandemic in the UK but a couple of months before lockdown, so the idea that COVID is the reason we're in administration is clearly nonsensical, despite Mel's claims to the contrary.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Red Ram

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

If that's true - then why? None of these points deductions punish MM and SP - they both just walk away from the smoking wreckage

It only punishes the fans. That's what really stinks.

 

If the EFL wanted to be vindictive why let us sign Jags and Baldock?

[desirelines]

17 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

Penalty Points Being Faced:. 
• 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate. 
• 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages. 
• 12 Points for administration. 
• 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts. 
• 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 – 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 – 2019 Accounts
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 – 2020 Accounts.

Title winning form needed to survive a 69 point deduction I reckon. 

[Spanish]

6 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

If that's true - then why? None of these points deductions punish MM and SP - they both just walk away from the smoking wreckage

It only punishes the fans. That's what really stinks.

 

how else could it work, owner arrives, breaches rules, club does not get promoted, walks away with no punishment for club, repeat until success occurs.

Awful though, but we thought he was one of our own and wouldn't abandon us in this mess

[Spanish]

6 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

Apologies if this has already been posted. It's impossible to keep up with all the threads at the moment but this is essential listening.

The Price of Football - Derby County in administration

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/Derby-county-in-administration/id1482886394?i=1000535953160

One thing that stands out. The HRMC filed a winding up order against the club in January 2020, which was at the start of the pandemic in the UK but a couple of months before lockdown, so the idea that COVID is the reason we're in administration is clearly nonsensical, despite Mel's claims to the contrary.

wow, any proof of that

[RadioactiveWaste]

19 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I don't know how he has come up with the breaches based on the interview, he only mentioned £4m breach in a single year.  The stadium sale would have covered 3 of the 3 year cycles I think

There did seem to be some "oh and this and oh and this and oh and this so it adds up to eleventy million points deducted"

I don't doubt that the situation may be bleak, possibly as bleak as painted. But I'm a little skeptical on taking the whole post at face value.