Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[JoetheRam]

22 minutes ago, Spanish said:

wow, any proof of that

Kieran Maguire says he has a document showing it dated Jan 2020 on the Podcast that Red Ram linked to. About 25 minutes in.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

39 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

Apologies if this has already been posted. It's impossible to keep up with all the threads at the moment but this is essential listening.

The Price of Football - Derby County in administration

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/Derby-county-in-administration/id1482886394?i=1000535953160

One thing that stands out. The HRMC filed a winding up order against the club in January 2020, which was at the start of the pandemic in the UK but a couple of months before lockdown, so the idea that COVID is the reason we're in administration is clearly nonsensical, despite Mel's claims to the contrary.

The spending had been going on long before. What is really frustrating is where was a plan b? Why was there no proper financial management. Often businesses get into trouble not only because of bad decisions and over spending but climate - e.g. high street shops. While COVID can be used as a recent excuse it certainly doesn't exonerate Morris or Pearce as from your post, we can see its been happening for a while before. For several years, there has been spiralling debts. While the climate has been difficult- no prem, Derby County have had stable gates, stable merchandise sales, sponsorship and TV revenue, its been a choice to substantially live beyond means with huge wages spent. 

[BramcoteRam84]

1 hour ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this. 
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in ??
 

Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on  

 

Sheep Dip Update: (Please note the comments are my opinion based on information that I have been receiving since 2019 and dictate a series of events that have been divulged to me. Despite the accuracies, I have made sum assumptions on the alleged intentions of the actions and these will likely differ from the actual events) 
You may have to re-read my old posts about the position Derby was in and I am sure Wayne can bring them back up if you wish to read back?
Generally though, there is no point on going on what has been said as it is all now out and with Mel’s interview today finally admitting that they are in Breach of FFP for all of the years the accounts haven’t been submitted properly, which covers the 3 years accounts 2015 – 2018/ 2018-2019 & 2019-2020. This would indicate 3 separate FFP punishments, but I will touch on that a little later. 
My understanding is that over the recent months after the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs. 
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples – they simply could not explain. The EFL provided a final extension of 7 days for them to supply the acceptable accounts or face a points penalty. 
The EFL went back to the arbitration panel and were told that if this was not complied with, they could have the points penalty they originally demanded through the hearing. I am guessing Derby were notified of this around the same time. As a result of this, all of the previous delaying tactics and alleged deliberate moves to push the can down the road (so to speak) were no longer possible and the EFL patience would finally be realised. 
I have said for a while Administration was on the cards, however, I have been told that how the debt is structured with the club, it is unlikely administration will have much impact. I have also had the benefit to see higher level financials provided by a party involved in the potential takeover through an NDA and it isn’t pretty. 
In respect of the club moving forward this is what I understand as now. 
Penalty Points Being Faced:. 
• 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate. 
• 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages. 
• 12 Points for administration. 
• 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts. 
• 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 – 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 – 2019 Accounts
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 – 2020 Accounts.
The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga. 
It appeared they continued with this ritual of trying to re-write the rules to suit their overspending in order to avoid the inevitable punishments in expectation that promotion would mean they could have got away with a fine. (QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it) FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby.
There are many comments from Derby fans claiming the club can take the EFL to court. This is not possible. The EFL are the jurisdiction on the rules of the football league, the courts have no jurisdiction. The accounts may well have been compliant legally for companies law, but this has no bearing on the rules of the football league. Clubs agree to compliance to the rules, it is in their articles of association.
What Next?
Morris and Derby have pretty much burnt their bridges at Derby and the announcement blaming the EFL for administration didn’t go down too well. Despite the administration I would expect the EFL to make an example of them and I expect the club will see a series of points deducted over the next two seasons (as reported in the Star) to have the maximum effect. IF the club is still here. 
Derby are now a club whom don’t own their stadium – MSD whom had the loan charge on it will have taken ownership of the company. There is a charge on the training ground also and the ownership of that will revert to the lenders. It would be my expectation that lenders will want to dispose of ASAP and will not care to whom or for what. This leaves a football club with a barebones staff, no training ground and no stadium of ownership and with guaranteed League 1 football next season with a possibility of League 2 the season after. It is going to need a miracle or a seriously generous benefactor to survive. 
My own opinion on Mel Morris – I think he is an abhorrent character, whom dodged the stadium valuation by trying to justify what other clubs are doing. He refuses to take responsibility for the way he ran Derby and continues to this day to mention Forest in order to deflect the goings on at Derby. He says this because he thinks their fans are stupid and it will garner support. M&P have run the club to the point of oblivion and have been constantly telling fans what they think they want to hear, rather than the actual goings on. Derby do have the potential to survive, the club has a healthy income driven by the enthusiastic and loyal fanbase it maybe that it rises through another phoenix club or the administrators work absolute wonders with the current debts. Although upon reading Nixon’s tweet about the administrators, that sounds like that comes from the PR Spin of M&P again….

Written by a Forest fan entitled Sheep Dip Update. Says all you need to know.

Probably 5% truth and 95% Complete and utter BS 

[Ghost of Clough]

57 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

Apologies if this has already been posted. It's impossible to keep up with all the threads at the moment but this is essential listening.

The Price of Football - Derby County in administration

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/Derby-county-in-administration/id1482886394?i=1000535953160

One thing that stands out. The HRMC filed a winding up order against the club in January 2020, which was at the start of the pandemic in the UK but a couple of months before lockdown, so the idea that COVID is the reason we're in administration is clearly nonsensical, despite Mel's claims to the contrary.

The argument would be that of the business being able to continue if it wasn't for Covid. Covid costing the club £20m tipping us over the edge.

[Crewton]

That post had "Facebook" written (badly) all over it. A Forest fan, I'm assuming?

Now, I have no evidence that it isn't 100% correct, but given that the first tribunal cleared us of all charges bar a slapped wrist over the amortisation, and the second one found us guilty on one point of disputed accounting practice that no two accountants seem, to be able to agree on and fined us £100,000 with a warning as to future behaviour, we seem to have accelerated rather quickly from a punishment equivalent to being locked up in the stocks for a couple of nights to being hung, drawn, quartered, chopped into pieces and the tiny fragments scattered to the four winds. 

As someone else mentioned, effectively killing DCFC seems an odd way to punish Morris and Pearce, unless the South Stand's chants have pricked their flimsy skins?

[nottingram]

1 hour ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this. 
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in ??
 

Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on  

 

Sheep Dip Update: (Please note the comments are my opinion based on information that I have been receiving since 2019 and dictate a series of events that have been divulged to me. Despite the accuracies, I have made sum assumptions on the alleged intentions of the actions and these will likely differ from the actual events) 
You may have to re-read my old posts about the position Derby was in and I am sure Wayne can bring them back up if you wish to read back?
Generally though, there is no point on going on what has been said as it is all now out and with Mel’s interview today finally admitting that they are in Breach of FFP for all of the years the accounts haven’t been submitted properly, which covers the 3 years accounts 2015 – 2018/ 2018-2019 & 2019-2020. This would indicate 3 separate FFP punishments, but I will touch on that a little later. 
My understanding is that over the recent months after the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs. 
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples – they simply could not explain. The EFL provided a final extension of 7 days for them to supply the acceptable accounts or face a points penalty. 
The EFL went back to the arbitration panel and were told that if this was not complied with, they could have the points penalty they originally demanded through the hearing. I am guessing Derby were notified of this around the same time. As a result of this, all of the previous delaying tactics and alleged deliberate moves to push the can down the road (so to speak) were no longer possible and the EFL patience would finally be realised. 
I have said for a while Administration was on the cards, however, I have been told that how the debt is structured with the club, it is unlikely administration will have much impact. I have also had the benefit to see higher level financials provided by a party involved in the potential takeover through an NDA and it isn’t pretty. 
In respect of the club moving forward this is what I understand as now. 
Penalty Points Being Faced:. 
• 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate. 
• 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages. 
• 12 Points for administration. 
• 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts. 
• 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 – 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 – 2019 Accounts
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 – 2020 Accounts.
The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga. 
It appeared they continued with this ritual of trying to re-write the rules to suit their overspending in order to avoid the inevitable punishments in expectation that promotion would mean they could have got away with a fine. (QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it) FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby.
There are many comments from Derby fans claiming the club can take the EFL to court. This is not possible. The EFL are the jurisdiction on the rules of the football league, the courts have no jurisdiction. The accounts may well have been compliant legally for companies law, but this has no bearing on the rules of the football league. Clubs agree to compliance to the rules, it is in their articles of association.
What Next?
Morris and Derby have pretty much burnt their bridges at Derby and the announcement blaming the EFL for administration didn’t go down too well. Despite the administration I would expect the EFL to make an example of them and I expect the club will see a series of points deducted over the next two seasons (as reported in the Star) to have the maximum effect. IF the club is still here. 
Derby are now a club whom don’t own their stadium – MSD whom had the loan charge on it will have taken ownership of the company. There is a charge on the training ground also and the ownership of that will revert to the lenders. It would be my expectation that lenders will want to dispose of ASAP and will not care to whom or for what. This leaves a football club with a barebones staff, no training ground and no stadium of ownership and with guaranteed League 1 football next season with a possibility of League 2 the season after. It is going to need a miracle or a seriously generous benefactor to survive. 
My own opinion on Mel Morris – I think he is an abhorrent character, whom dodged the stadium valuation by trying to justify what other clubs are doing. He refuses to take responsibility for the way he ran Derby and continues to this day to mention Forest in order to deflect the goings on at Derby. He says this because he thinks their fans are stupid and it will garner support. M&P have run the club to the point of oblivion and have been constantly telling fans what they think they want to hear, rather than the actual goings on. Derby do have the potential to survive, the club has a healthy income driven by the enthusiastic and loyal fanbase it maybe that it rises through another phoenix club or the administrators work absolute wonders with the current debts. Although upon reading Nixon’s tweet about the administrators, that sounds like that comes from the PR Spin of M&P again….

To be fair it makes sense that a random Forest fan on the internet would have been shown the financials by a party involved in the takeover despite the hugely strict NDA they would be under

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

10 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Written by a Forest fan entitled Sheep Dip Update. Says all you need to know.

Probably 5% truth and 95% Complete and utter BS 

Possibly so @BramcoteRam84 just forwarding on something I’ve been sent. 
 

Hope you’re right ??

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs. 
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples – they simply could not explain.

This is completely wrong. We were ordered to resubmit accounts which were in accordance with FRS102... not necessarily straight-line

[Ghost of Clough]

20 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Meadow Lane!

Probably the most likely option if things did go that badly.
Attendance figures would likely be around 15k. Never going to be sharing with Forest or Stoke. Next closest with a 15k capacity is Leicester, Coventry, Villa, Sheff Utd/Weds... bit of a trek to all of those.

[alexxxxx]

1 hour ago, Red Ram said:

Apologies if this has already been posted. It's impossible to keep up with all the threads at the moment but this is essential listening.

The Price of Football - Derby County in administration

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/Derby-county-in-administration/id1482886394?i=1000535953160

One thing that stands out. The HRMC filed a winding up order against the club in January 2020, which was at the start of the pandemic in the UK but a couple of months before lockdown, so the idea that COVID is the reason we're in administration is clearly nonsensical, despite Mel's claims to the contrary.

I can't bring myself to listen to KM on this. I quite like his podcast but I get the impression he really hates the club and not always convinced he has been fair on us.

I'm also not convinced he is genuine on feeling bad for us as fans. 

Can anyone quash my fears? 

Edited September 20, 2021 by alexxxxx

[Ambitious]

1 hour ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this. 
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in ??
 

Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on  

 

Sheep Dip Update: (Please note the comments are my opinion based on information that I have been receiving since 2019 and dictate a series of events that have been divulged to me. Despite the accuracies, I have made sum assumptions on the alleged intentions of the actions and these will likely differ from the actual events) 
You may have to re-read my old posts about the position Derby was in and I am sure Wayne can bring them back up if you wish to read back?
Generally though, there is no point on going on what has been said as it is all now out and with Mel’s interview today finally admitting that they are in Breach of FFP for all of the years the accounts haven’t been submitted properly, which covers the 3 years accounts 2015 – 2018/ 2018-2019 & 2019-2020. This would indicate 3 separate FFP punishments, but I will touch on that a little later. 
My understanding is that over the recent months after the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs. 
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples – they simply could not explain. The EFL provided a final extension of 7 days for them to supply the acceptable accounts or face a points penalty. 
The EFL went back to the arbitration panel and were told that if this was not complied with, they could have the points penalty they originally demanded through the hearing. I am guessing Derby were notified of this around the same time. As a result of this, all of the previous delaying tactics and alleged deliberate moves to push the can down the road (so to speak) were no longer possible and the EFL patience would finally be realised. 
I have said for a while Administration was on the cards, however, I have been told that how the debt is structured with the club, it is unlikely administration will have much impact. I have also had the benefit to see higher level financials provided by a party involved in the potential takeover through an NDA and it isn’t pretty. 
In respect of the club moving forward this is what I understand as now. 
Penalty Points Being Faced:. 
• 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate. 
• 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages. 
• 12 Points for administration. 
• 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts. 
• 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 – 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 – 2019 Accounts
• 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 – 2020 Accounts.
The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga. 
It appeared they continued with this ritual of trying to re-write the rules to suit their overspending in order to avoid the inevitable punishments in expectation that promotion would mean they could have got away with a fine. (QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it) FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby.
There are many comments from Derby fans claiming the club can take the EFL to court. This is not possible. The EFL are the jurisdiction on the rules of the football league, the courts have no jurisdiction. The accounts may well have been compliant legally for companies law, but this has no bearing on the rules of the football league. Clubs agree to compliance to the rules, it is in their articles of association.
What Next?
Morris and Derby have pretty much burnt their bridges at Derby and the announcement blaming the EFL for administration didn’t go down too well. Despite the administration I would expect the EFL to make an example of them and I expect the club will see a series of points deducted over the next two seasons (as reported in the Star) to have the maximum effect. IF the club is still here. 
Derby are now a club whom don’t own their stadium – MSD whom had the loan charge on it will have taken ownership of the company. There is a charge on the training ground also and the ownership of that will revert to the lenders. It would be my expectation that lenders will want to dispose of ASAP and will not care to whom or for what. This leaves a football club with a barebones staff, no training ground and no stadium of ownership and with guaranteed League 1 football next season with a possibility of League 2 the season after. It is going to need a miracle or a seriously generous benefactor to survive. 
My own opinion on Mel Morris – I think he is an abhorrent character, whom dodged the stadium valuation by trying to justify what other clubs are doing. He refuses to take responsibility for the way he ran Derby and continues to this day to mention Forest in order to deflect the goings on at Derby. He says this because he thinks their fans are stupid and it will garner support. M&P have run the club to the point of oblivion and have been constantly telling fans what they think they want to hear, rather than the actual goings on. Derby do have the potential to survive, the club has a healthy income driven by the enthusiastic and loyal fanbase it maybe that it rises through another phoenix club or the administrators work absolute wonders with the current debts. Although upon reading Nixon’s tweet about the administrators, that sounds like that comes from the PR Spin of M&P again….

If that's the case then surely liquidate the club and start again?

I'd imagine there is a bigger apatite from fans over a new phoenix club than there would be for the above scenario. It's not even remotely close for me. Hit the reset button and start again for me. 

[Tyler Durden]

45 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

The spending had been going on long before. What is really frustrating is where was a plan b? Why was there no proper financial management. Often businesses get into trouble not only because of bad decisions and over spending but climate - e.g. high street shops. While COVID can be used as a recent excuse it certainly doesn't exonerate Morris or Pearce as from your post, we can see its been happening for a while before. For several years, there has been spiralling debts. While the climate has been difficult- no prem, Derby County have had stable gates, stable merchandise sales, sponsorship and TV revenue, its been a choice to substantially live beyond means with huge wages spent. 

Yes but it's because the supporters egged him on to do it don't you know. 

All our fault. 

[Nuwtfly]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yes but it's because the supporters egged him on to do it don't you know. 

All our fault. 

The Wagging-the-Finger Derby fans with their "well, you asked for it!" dribble have got to be the worst of the worst. 

Yes, Karen. When I wanted us to sign Tom Ince from Hull I was in fact asking for administration and ruin. Nice one. 

[NottsRam77]

6 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

If that's the case then surely liquidate the club and start again?

I'd imagine there is a bigger apatite from fans over a new phoenix club than there would be for the above scenario. It's not even remotely close for me. Hit the reset button and start again for me. 

It sounds horrendous … it was written by a red dog though.. hes going to add a few extra layers on though isnt he 

mel has done many things badly … do u think he would let us be liquidated though? 

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 minute ago, NottsRam77 said:

It sounds horrendous … it was written by a red dog though.. hes going to add a few extra layers on though isnt he 

mel has done many things badly … do u think he would let us be liquidated though? 

Up to administrators now. So by placing us in administration, yes.

[NottsRam77]

42 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The argument would be that of the business being able to continue if it wasn't for Covid. Covid costing the club £20m tipping us over the edge.

Its dead easy to prove

heres our gate receipts and corporate turnover for the last 10 seasons 

heres our gate reciepts and corporate turnover for last years world pandemic?

bye bye 20m quid due to exceptional unpresidented causes out of even our hands

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by NottsRam77

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

4 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yes but it's because the supporters egged him on to do it don't you know. 

All our fault. 

Ha, I'm sure thats a sarcastic post. That argument though if anyone makes it is irrelevant. Fans will always demand spending and new signings but actually the fans don't know the state of finances, plus it is not the fans' responsibility to make sure the club is properly run. Some people were questioning high transfer fees spent on players and a lot more would have questioned these kinds of situations if they had known exactly the wages involved and the financial climate of the club. The custodians of the club have a duty to make sure the club is secure short and long term. Morris and Pearce have let the fans down. I also think the EFL need to be under more scrutiny. While it is great a variety of clubs are represented, there needs to be some independence as some of their behaviour seems wrong and vindictive.

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Ha, I'm sure thats a sarcastic post. That argument though if anyone makes it is irrelevant. Fans will always demand spending and new signings but actually the fans don't know the state of finances, plus it is not the fans' responsibility to make sure the club is properly run. Some people were questioning high transfer fees spent on players and a lot more would have questioned these kinds of situations if they had known exactly the wages involved and the financial climate of the club. The custodians of the club have a duty to make sure the club is secure short and long term. Morris and Pearce have let the fans down. I also think the EFL need to be under more scrutiny. While it is great a variety of clubs are represented, there needs to be some independence as some of their behaviour seems wrong and vindictive.

Sarcastic? Who me ?

[Woodley Ram]

This is a thought and I have no basis for it. What if the EFL knew that DCFC were going into administration and the 9 points + 3 suspended was for that not FFP.

Covid is very relevant as if we can show we are going into Administration due to Covid then we might not get -12 points as we could never have forseen or planned for it.

That said we have had a number of years of financial mismangement

[Spanish]

17 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

It sounds horrendous … it was written by a red dog though.. hes going to add a few extra layers on though isnt he 

mel has done many things badly … do u think he would let us be liquidated though? 

no longer his choice though