Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[May Contain Nuts]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Wasn't it also 14th and 13th in 2 of the 3 seasons before he took over? 11th twice and 13th twice between '98 and '01 too

Just one of the many things the lad glossed over to paint his narrative.

Didn't mention them finishing 5th under Pardew (not that it was entertaining) and seems to think that finishes of 12th, 12th, 10th, 10th, 13th, 13th, 12th constitute being in a relegation fight every season.

Talks about Benitez, Hughton and their great squads saving them from a fate worse than Leeds, doesn't mention who appointed those managers or ensured they paid wages for a squad capable of blitzing the Championship.

Honestly although he was polite, he just reaffirmed my thoughts on a lot of their fans. This new one doesn't give me the same vibe tbf.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[NottsRam77]

2 hours ago, Wolfie20 said:

....and yet barely half of that 40k can't find enough reason to turn up when the Club desperately needs their support more than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if more than 10k of those at Wembley haven't stepped foot in Pride Park since so in my opinion they don't count.

Absolutely 

[ToonTom]

39 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Just one of the many things the lad glossed over to paint his narrative.

Didn't mention them finishing 5th under Pardew (not that it was entertaining) and seems to think that finishes of 12th, 12th, 10th, 10th, 13th, 13th, 12th constitute being in a relegation fight every season.

Talks about Benitez, Hughton and their great squads saving them from a fate worse than Leeds, doesn't mention who appointed those managers or ensured they paid wages for a squad capable of blitzing the Championship.

Honestly although he was polite, he just reaffirmed my thoughts on a lot of their fans. This new one doesn't give me the same vibe tbf.

Alan Pardew benefited from a single magical season when Cisse could hit a barn door and still score. It was a one-hit wonder, believe me. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the two Championships, and I'm certain I didn't argue that Rafa and Hughton saved us from a fate worse than Leeds. That's very much you stirring up a big pot of prejudices and coming out with a swedge of stereotypes.

Most of those 12ths and 13ths came through a series of very late and unexpected wins. The largest part of those seasons were spent calculating how we would avoid relegation and thinking we might not. Since we avoided relegation on the final day of the 2014-2015 season (yet finished 15th - what right do we have to moan, eh?), we have been relegated, promoted, and then flirted with relegation every season until those late and unexpected points. If you don't get it, that might possibly be because you didn't live it.

It's a shame I've just reaffirmed your thoughts on a lot of NUFC fans. The reality is that if you had lived it (as a Newcastle fan, I mean), you wouldn't have said it.

[ToonTom]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Wasn't it also 14th and 13th in 2 of the 3 seasons before he took over? 11th twice and 13th twice between '98 and '01 too

It was (2006 to 2002), 7th, 14th (no flirting with relegation whatsoever), 5th, 3rd, 4th.

As I think I said, the early days with Ashley weren't terrible. It what was to slowly come that you need to be wary of.

As I definitely said, you can finish 13th because of some fortunate results right at the last having had a terrible season of worry about relegation.

A case in point is last season when Joe Willock's goals got us up from 16th/17th to a final finish of 12th. I definitely wouldn't want to have to re-live that season just because we finished many places above the relegation spots.

[GenBr]

2 hours ago, Wolfie20 said:

....and yet barely half of that 40k can't find enough reason to turn up when the Club desperately needs their support more than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if more than 10k of those at Wembley haven't stepped foot in Pride Park since so in my opinion they don't count.

We're not all made of money. Just because people don't go to every match doesn't mean they are any less of a fan. I certainly can't afford the outlay of going to Derby matches every week

2 hours ago, ToonTom said:

 

Anyway, to Cashley. Derby right now is a good fit for him. It's 'local' (to SDHQ) so that makes sense investing in the community, and he absolutely will run the club's finances tightly and profitably. Initially and for a few years you might feel relieved, but as the years go by you'll start to notice that there's no real investment going into the club so everything starts to deteriorate - the ground, the training faciltiies, the academy, and very soon the football. If you are in the Premiership (where you should be), you'll have season after season of worrying every day about relegation so never actually enjoying the football and - if he installs a Steve Bruce as manager one day - you'll have to watch lifeless, unattacking football at its very worst. So no expectations of any kind whilst your club falls apart from the paint downwards.

You should read up on the history of Derby County for the past 20 years. We've already had to watch dull, lifeless football for good chunks of that period with Mel the brief shining light before he stuck us in administration. We've had experience of worrying about being relegated to league one season after season nevermind the prem. We haven't been in your luxurious position for a long time.

You need to look at it from our perspective and not from the perspective of a newcastle fan who has been watching premier league football for virtually that entire period.

If we're ever in a position where our only concern is maybe being relegated from the Prem i don't think you will hear many complaints from our side. It is virtually impossible to get out of the championship without cheating.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ram59 said:

Simple question, would swap the last 20 years you've had at Newcastle for the last 20 years that we've had at Derby?

Ive watched Derby since 1961. In those 60 years Derby were Champions of England twice. Newcastle won the Inter Cities Fairs Cup, the forerunner of the UEFA Cup and Europa League, in 1969. I have no envy of Newcastle fans whatsoever. Anyway, I wouldn't swap my 60 years with a fan of any other club because 'I'm Derby 'til I die.' So thanks but no thanks for the offer.

And by the way if Mike Ashley wants to buy the club, I'd snap his hand off. I wish he'd bought it in 2014. We'd be in a much better place than we are now.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Guest
Additional paragraph

[Ram-Alf]

9 minutes ago, ToonTom said:

It was (2006 to 2002), 7th, 14th (no flirting with relegation whatsoever), 5th, 3rd, 4th.

As I think I said, the early days with Ashley weren't terrible. It what was to slowly come that you need to be wary of.

As I definitely said, you can finish 13th because of some fortunate results right at the last having had a terrible season of worry about relegation.

A case in point is last season when Joe Willock's goals got us up from 16th/17th to a final finish of 12th. I definitely wouldn't want to have to re-live that season just because we finished many places above the relegation spots.

I would have loved to have been in your position for all those years, Flirting around the PL, Winning the Championship twice, Football has the ability to take you to the depths of football life to the highs of emotion when winning, Even battling relegation can get the juices flowing, The football may not be pretty...like we have witnessed under several previous Managers when being set for the playoffs.

Now we're battling for our future, A battle i'm confident of winning, We'll be starting football life all over again but in which division is yet to be seen.

[Leeds Ram]

13 hours ago, DerbyGeordie said:

Hi all,

Newcastle fan here. Been going to Uni of Derby for 2 years now (in my final year) and after hearing and reading what's went on at the club in the last few years I've grown a bit of a soft spot for DCFC. Saw that you were linked with Ashley taking over, now, I am aware that as a club you're probably in the worst state you've ever been in. Ever. In administration, a potential risk of going into liquidation, absolutely criminal that could happen to your club, as to me its still a good sized club with standing in English football. Ashley seems like a ticket out, financial stability. But, and I have to say after reading some of the posts on here which are terribly incorrect, the man is/was an utter parasite.

Where we were as a club before Ashley was probably where Spurs, West Ham are now. Promoted to the Premier League in 1993, finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th and 7th in the period before Ashley took over, regulars in Europe, played 3 seasons of Champions League football. Won nothing obviously, but we had genuine hope. Ashley takes over in 2007, within 2 years we're relegated. We bounce back due to the quality of the squad we had at the time, stay in the Premier League for another 6 seasons (3 of which were relegation battles) and get relegated again. The second relegation, we had a wage bill the size of a midtable PL club in the Championship and had Rafa Benitez in charge so we bounce straight back again. Since then we've been fighting relegation again, Rafa leaves due to no ambition at the club beyond staying up; his replacement summing up that ambition which even he is making an arse of.

Now I know it's rich to come on here and complain about doing nowt more than staying in the PL given your situation, but this is all relative. Our two promotions Ashley lucked out at the squad and managers present there at the time and we only had to get promoted because of beyond tragic management from Ashley in the first place.

The whole 'he's a good business man' and 'got Newcastle financially sound' is a myth. Part of £300m fee paid for the club from the consortium on Thursday will have partly been made up my interest free loans Ashley took out from the club; taking money out so to speak. Our commerical revenue was greater than Spurs, Everton and West Ham before Ashley took over, now clubs like Brighton & Hove Albion are millions ahead. Across his 14 years his net spend is +£10m which in the PL scheme of things is peanuts.

I see why you may want him, you'd probably take almost anyone and I don't blame yous for that. But he is not a good football club owner and the perception that he was good for us is so far wide of the mark is untrue. He has set us back years and this golden ticket we've been given will see that, as it'll be years until we're on a level footing with Spurs, Everton, West Ham and Villa.

I appreciate where you're coming from but you're massively cherry picking your league places to justify your claim about Ashley and a 'lack of ambition'. You're missing out that a lot of those excellent league finishes happened before big money arrived in football and some of the latter ones in the early noughties were under Bobby Robson. Once he left in 03/04 your league finishes mostly replicate what's happened under Ashley. Indeed, in 2011 under the horrible ownership of Mike Ashley you achieved the highest league position since Bobby Robson left. 

It's alright to say Ashley lucked out in the squad and manager he got but he bought that squad and manager in the first place. He didn't sell them off for parts exactly did he. It won't be years until you're on a level footing with spurs, west ham, everton, west ham or villa and 2 of those clubs have had relatively recent spells in the second division just like yours. I'm not denying that Ashley is a hard nosed businessman that wasn't willing to plough money into the club but your numbers again are cherry picked. In the last 5 years you've had a net spend of 125 million pounds which is around 13th in the premier league. You've had a higher net spend than Leicester in the previous 5 years according to some reports. 

[Jimbo Ram]

7 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I would have loved to have been in your position for all those years, Flirting around the PL, Winning the Championship twice, Football has the ability to take you to the depths of football life to the highs of emotion when winning, Even battling relegation can get the juices flowing, The football may not be pretty...like we have witnessed under several previous Managers when being set for the playoffs.

Now we're battling for our future, A battle i'm confident of winning, We'll be starting football life all over again but in which division is yet to be seen.

Hopefully in League 1 with no further points deduction in to next season, would settle for that and a fresh start.

[ToonTom]

5 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I would have loved to have been in your position for all those years, Flirting around the PL, Winning the Championship twice, Football has the ability to take you to the depths of football life to the highs of emotion when winning, Even battling relegation can get the juices flowing, The football may not be pretty...like we have witnessed under several previous Managers when being set for the playoffs.

Now we're battling for our future, A battle i'm confident of winning, We'll be starting football life all over again but in which division is yet to be seen.

I said earlier that our 20 years was more desirable.

I also said that the two Championships were amazing.

I also accept that no team should feel immune to the threat of failure/relegation/administration (we came close ourselves in 1992).

But no football fan would genuinely enjoy season after season at or near the bottom of any division just trying to survive another year except in retrospect when things got even worse. But you don't live your football in retrospect - it's lived game after game and when that's soulless, unambitious, and effectively without hope of changing, it cannot be better than what follows because you don't get to know what follows until it does.

Long and short of it is that you've had a tough 20 years and we've had a tough 14 years (even if the league tables don't always tell the tale). We live with our frustrations and you live with yours. My point was that Ashley could be a short-term solution for Derby or a long-term solution in the Championship. I suspect you'll want more once you get properly stabilised again. And, indeed, you should.

[Rampage]

Mike knows a bargain when he sees one. He would probably spend enough to get us in the Premier League, then enough to just keep us in it. I would take that right now. 

[VulcanRam]

4 hours ago, WystonRam said:

St James Park is a mixture of old stands and new ones (that are way to big) and when you sit in the upper tiers of the newer stands you look down on the roofs of the older stands. The atmosphere is none existent in the upper reaches of the stands, and looking down on the pitch the players are so far away they look like toys.It is not a very joined together place, hampered by the fact it is in the middle off the city centre, so expansion has been lopsided due to the existing buildings in the immediatley surrounding areas being "in the way". The best thing for Newcastle United would be to build a brand new purpose built modern stadium and knock down their current ground.(IMO)

I kind of agree regards the lopsided nature of it, bit like Old Trafford, plus the view/distance from the away end is terrible. But unlike OT, which never fails to disappoint regards the atmosphere, SJP has so much going for it. Its location is absolutely critical; city centre, easy walking distance of stacks of pubs/restaurants in every direction, just its location high and overlooking the city centre as a monument to its surroundings is majestic - it's an atmospheric and brilliant football stadium, and I love going there, if only for the banter with the Geordies, who can always had a great chat with. I've been there loads down the years and never fail to have a good time, win (rarely) lose (frequently) or draw (occasionally). Moving to a new ground would have to mean out of town, and you just lose everything that's great about going. 

[GenBr]

2 hours ago, ToonTom said:

 

Long and short of it is that you've had a tough 20 years and we've had a tough 14 years (even if the league tables don't always tell the tale). 

I don't want to be rude, but newcastle fans have not had a tough 14 years. Nowhere near - stop all the woe is me stuff. Newcastle United have been in a comfortable position for the entire period and are facing none of the challenges that are going to kill off half of the football league. Mel Morris is one of the better owners we've had in the last 20 years and he put us in administration for christ sake.

This why most other clubs dont have any sympathy for your fans and their demands for Ashley to be removed. Completely out of touch with the rest of the footballing world.

[May Contain Nuts]

3 hours ago, ToonTom said:

Alan Pardew benefited from a single magical season when Cisse could hit a barn door and still score. It was a one-hit wonder, believe me. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the two Championships, and I'm certain I didn't argue that Rafa and Hughton saved us from a fate worse than Leeds. That's very much you stirring up a big pot of prejudices and coming out with a swedge of stereotypes.

Most of those 12ths and 13ths came through a series of very late and unexpected wins. The largest part of those seasons were spent calculating how we would avoid relegation and thinking we might not. Since we avoided relegation on the final day of the 2014-2015 season (yet finished 15th - what right do we have to moan, eh?), we have been relegated, promoted, and then flirted with relegation every season until those late and unexpected points. If you don't get it, that might possibly be because you didn't live it.

It's a shame I've just reaffirmed your thoughts on a lot of NUFC fans. The reality is that if you had lived it (as a Newcastle fan, I mean), you wouldn't have said it.

I was talking about the other bloke, who very much did make out that Ashley was lucky to have Benitez and Hughton as managers. I even made a point to note that your posts were different, so....

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Mel Morris is one of the better owners we've had in the last 20 years and he put us in administration for christ sake.

Not in my book I'm afraid. For me he comes fourth behind Lionel Pickering, the League of Gentlemen (which I know included Mel as one of the six) and GSE. but in front of the Three Amigos. He is the only owner of the club to ever put us into administration. The club was taken from Lionel by the Co-op Bank who put us into administration for 45 minutes before selling it for £3 to the Three Amigos who between them hadn't got a pot to pee in. Lionel was not even aware he had lost the club until after the £3 had been paid. When their fraudulent venture was exposed, some senior managers at the bank were sacked as a consequence of their action.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Guest

[MackworthRamIsGod]

Whether you like Ashley or not, want him or don't, isn't it nice to have credible people with actual money linked to buying the club.

I don't expect Ashley will buy Derby, but it is good to have positive stories. Remember, Mel was all to willing to sell to Erik Alonso.

The names being linked to Derby today, not popular figures with their old clubs some of them, but they do have the finance.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Ideal scenario would be Ashley buys the club, stablises it and sells after a couple of years.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

45 minutes ago, GenBr said:

I don't want to be rude, but newcastle fans have not had a tough 14 years. Nowhere near - stop all the woe is me stuff. Newcastle United have been in a comfortable position for the entire period and are facing none of the challenges that are going to kill off half of the football league. Mel Morris is one of the better owners we've had in the last 20 years and he put us in administration for christ sake.

This why most other clubs dont have any sympathy for your fans and their demands for Ashley to be removed. Completely out of touch with the rest of the footballing world.

A lot of Newcastle fans will remember the 90s when they were a top side. It’s all relative. They’re a big club (fan base) Finishing mid table to bottom of prem most years won’t be that fulfilling. 
Even clubs like Burnley are just there not doing much, it’s going to get boring. If Derby has gone up in 2014 and constantly finished between mid table and the bottom, a lot of fans would end up a bit disillusioned after a few years. Derby fans have probably had more fun watching playoff campaigns than Newcastle fans (apart from their title win) within the last decade. 

[CBRammette]

16 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Whether you like Ashley or not, want him or don't, isn't it nice to have credible people with actual money linked to buying the club.

I don't expect Ashley will buy Derby, but it is good to have positive stories. Remember, Mel was all to willing to sell to Erik Alonso.

The names being linked to Derby today, not popular figures with their old clubs some of them, but they do have the finance.

Yes on that Friday night when it all broke if you'd said even two parties would be interested I'd have been ecstatic.  It felt desperate over that weekend. To allegedly have a few credible interested parties is really really encouraging. Perhaps some would rather we were liquidated

[CornwallRam]

Just musing on the figures being bandied about, especially the 'soft debt' to Mel. I've read that the club owes Mel £100m, but he doesn't want it back.

On the face of it, it seems a nice gesture  but is it going to cause some huge issues?

I know the unsecured creditors have to agree a percentage to allow the club to undertake a CVA and emerge from administration. I believe that each creditor gets a vote that is the same weighting as the debt owed - so if you are owed 10% of the debt, your vote is worth 10%. 75% of the creditors need to agree for it to proceed. Surely Mel accounts for at least 75% of the debt so he's effectively the one agreeing the CVA?

Further, if the unsecured creditors don't get at least 25%, I believe that we get a points deduction for next season - 15 points maybe? Does that mean if we don't give Mel at least £25m, we get penalised, even if he agrees to take nothing.

Finally, to run up a £100m debt, Mel must have been putting money in in loans for the last few years, rather than equity. Unless he's been putting in cash as well (and if he has, how has the club lost so much?), it reduces the P&S allowable loss to £8m per season. Does that mean we're absolutely bound to fail the next two or three rounds of P&S and going to be losing points for several seasons?