Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[Raich Carter]

1 hour ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

Cant speak for anyone else however…..  

Now the Administrators have decided to appeal the -12points inflicted on DCFC, I feel quite confident that they’ve had the time to go through our accounts and decided in their Professional opinion that (due to COVID and our previous accounts and income in the seasons prior to COVID) we have a strong enough case to call “Force Majure” on our administration.

Why else would they take this course of action if there was little/no chance of success.  

These people are accountants after all and they won’t have taken this course of action unless they felt we had a very strong argument. 

I'd agree with that. They have no axe to grind, not invested (in any sense, etc) so they must have looked at it logically and decided it's worth challenging. I don't think it's for the benefit of the club - it looks like they think it's just plain wrong. 

We don't have the insider knowledge to know all the whys and wherefores but fingers crossed. 

PS Not a chance they'll get it over-turned!

[rammieib]

Covid has been used under force majeure in many many businesses over the past 18 months.

How?

My business was closed.

My staff were at home.

My supply chain couldn’t supply.

Literally thousands of these cases around.

So the administrators will simply need to prove that the covid caused the administration which in other words is demonstrating that the £20 million cash flow hit caused the inability to trade.

I think they have a decent case.

 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

1 hour ago, Gritstone Ram said:

What about the moon landing and twin towers which side of the fence should we sit with these? 

The moon landing was achieved with a computer with the computing power equivalent to a casino calculator today and twin towers, whilst clearly hit by 2 planes, witnessed some of the best piloting skills ever seen. Especially at the Pentagon as somehow the inexperienced pilot managed to fly the huge passenger plane at roughly 30 feet off the ground before hitting it the Pentagon head one...and then vanished without a trace.

Both entirely believable if you ask me.

[Sufferingfool]

Is it ok to believe in Santa?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 hours ago, NottsRammy said:

Quoting my own words here . 

Think about this !! ??

Why would you sack 20 people saving on wages then spend 300k on the possible outcome of a negative appeal on the -12 . 

You wouldnt would you .

There is alot going off behind closed doors . Believe me we will win the appeal and it will be either 0 points deducted or -6 . But its going to come at a cost of accepting the 2nd one so we cant appeal it . There is a possibility we could just end up with -9  or get 2 x -6  . Somethings cooking behind the scenes as you dont spend 300k without knowing the result having sacked around 20 jobs . If you dont believe this then your probably in the same group as who believe Diana Spencer was accidently killed in that car crash .........wakey wakey people . 

Wasn't the car being driven at 80 mph by a bloke who'd consumed half a bottle of wine through 3 miles of solid concrete.  I'm not sure seatbelts were being used either.  I may take some convincing it was a conspiracy.  

[G STAR RAM]

6 hours ago, NottsRammy said:

If you ask me i think the efl and the administrators have already done a deal . Where going to get 6 points knocked off the admin penalty Buttttttttttt only if Derby accept a possible 9 points from the accounting mess up . So a total of -15 or maybe if we are ultra lucky -6 for them both . Which would tie into rooneys -12 we have a chance of getting out idea . 

I honestly think the efl do not want to see a club the size of Derby in a lower division even if the prat Steve Gibson does . 

Watch this space because i think all the deals have already been done on the penalty side of things , its just who is taking us over . 

The appeal is heard by an Independent Arbitrary Panel, so there is no deal to be done.

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Mel bought his initial 25% of the club on the eve of the play-off final versus QPR in 2014. He completed his buy out from GSE later that year. The club was in its best place since the turn of the millennium. It was debt free, following six years of austerity measures under GSE. The team were favourites to win promotion to the Premier League. Mel inherited a club that was in its best place for years. He leaves it to fight against relegation to Division One.

The bold bit just simply isnt true and I'm not sure why you would say it if you don't know the facts.

The club was £18m in debt (from memory) and losing circa £9m per year.

[24Charlie]

34 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Covid has been used under force majeure in many many businesses over the past 18 months.

How?

My business was closed.

My staff were at home.

My supply chain couldn’t supply.

Literally thousands of these cases around.

So the administrators will simply need to prove that the covid caused the administration which in other words is demonstrating that the £20 million cash flow hit caused the inability to trade.

I think they have a decent case.

 

Quite right.

The fact that the EFL decided to carry on with the league season and the following one forced Derby to trade without the income of fans while also under an embargo imposed by the EFL not least for non payment of tax.

Its been well stated that we fell into the Goldilocks zone for being vulnerable to the effects of COVID and not being allowed the £8m relief was the straw that broke the camels back.

It’s seems reasonable grounds to me.

[NottsRammy]

26 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The appeal is heard by an Independent Arbitrary Panel, so there is no deal to be done.

Oh you mean that INDEPENDANT panel that had no accountant on it the last time ( independant my arse ) . Crikey what does it take for people to wise up . 

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, NottsRammy said:

Oh you mean that INDEPENDANT panel that had no accountant on it the last time ( independant my arse ) . Crikey what does it take for people to wise up . 

No, this is the equivalent of the IDC.

[Ram-Alf]

44 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The moon landing was achieved with a computer with the computing power equivalent to a casino calculator today and twin towers, whilst clearly hit by 2 planes, witnessed some of the best piloting skills ever seen. Especially at the Pentagon as somehow the inexperienced pilot managed to fly the huge passenger plane at roughly 30 feet off the ground before hitting it the Pentagon head one...and then vanished without a trace.

Both entirely believable if you ask me.

Pretty sure the pilot was named by the FBI and CIA as Rack Juby a Saudi Night club owner.

[Raich Carter]

47 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Covid has been used under force majeure in many many businesses over the past 18 months.

How?

My business was closed.

My staff were at home.

My supply chain couldn’t supply.

Literally thousands of these cases around.

So the administrators will simply need to prove that the covid caused the administration which in other words is demonstrating that the £20 million cash flow hit caused the inability to trade.

I think they have a decent case.

 

Don't let the facts get in the way! ? The EFL won't lose face - there's not a chance they'll change their mind unless there's some legal action which will open a massive can of worms as all the other clubs will be able to sue... So my point is, it's not about the relative merits of our case, it's just that they can't / won't change the ruling. In my opinion, of course.

[Reggie Greenwood]

2 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

Don't let the facts get in the way! ? The EFL won't lose face - there's not a chance they'll change their mind unless there's some legal action which will open a massive can of worms as all the other clubs will be able to sue... So my point is, it's not about the relative merits of our case, it's just that they can't / won't change the ruling. In my opinion, of course.

Not the EFL to decide though it’s the Independent panel 

[atherstoneram]

59 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Wrong again, it is a common misunderstanding about the legal issue of "causation. It is the other things (eg Derby's historic overspending) that are "factors"... COVID was the cause of Derby 's administration.. unless there was something else that could have prevented us from going into admin... eg selling a player for £26 million to pay the tax bill.  

 

The tax bill didn't just happen overnight, we could have sold players in the transfer window to pay debt. The lack of transparency from the club by failing to submit the last 2 years accounts to the EFL raises a Red flag. We don't know what financial position the club were in. To blame everything on Covid is clutching at straws without knowing the full facts No doubt all will be revealed in time.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Hordh said:

MM took the club to the point that when Covid hit there was no breathing room left. That's why he couldn't get the £8m loan. If the club are successful then it does set a very dangerous precedent.

We couldn't get the loan because the EFL suspected we failed P&S due to over-valuing the stadium and using a non-compliant amortisation policy.

The stadium was found to be correctly valued and every practicing accountant involved in the amortisation policy fiasco has said it's complaint (with the exception of wording it correctly in the accounts).

Without that charge in January 2020, we get that Covid loan.

[atherstoneram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Wrong again, it is a common misunderstanding about the legal issue of "causation. It is the other things (eg Derby's historic overspending) that are "factors"... COVID was the cause of Derby 's administration.. unless there was something else that could have prevented us from going into admin... eg selling a player for £26 million to pay the tax bill.  

 

Covid was only one of the factors, as you have admitted yourself Derby's historical overspending,which we could still be paying for would also be seen as factors.

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Wrong again, it is a common misunderstanding about the legal issue of "causation. It is the other things (eg Derby's historic overspending) that are "factors"... COVID was the cause of Derby 's administration.. unless there was something else that could have prevented us from going into admin... eg selling a player for £26 million to pay the tax bill.  

 

Someone posted the EFl rule. Pretty sure it says that if the appeal is to succeed, the administration needs to be ‘solely’ caused by the force majeure event (ie covid)   Quite a high threshold and plenty of scope for debate. 

[Guest]

There is a lot of mention of Debt.  It is sort of irrelevant.  Businesses can run quite successfully with large amounts of debt, so long as it can be serviced successfully and budgeted for.  Derby is a big club in the EFL in terms of attendances and gate receipts.  So without the income due to no fans, that debt could not be serviced.

That’s the simple argument. COVID did not allow the owner to service debt that he would have been able to do if COVID had not have happened.

[I know nuffin]

48 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Someone posted the EFl rule. Pretty sure it says that if the appeal is to succeed, the administration needs to be ‘solely’ caused by the force majeure event (ie covid)   Quite a high threshold and plenty of scope for debate. 

Surely there is the effect of covid on the club of about 20 million then there is the effect of covid o. MMs cash flow and his ability or not to continue subsidising the club

[Mostyn6]

3 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

The tax bill didn't just happen overnight, we could have sold players in the transfer window to pay debt. The lack of transparency from the club by failing to submit the last 2 years accounts to the EFL raises a Red flag. We don't know what financial position the club were in. To blame everything on Covid is clutching at straws without knowing the full facts No doubt all will be revealed in time.

We couldn’t have sold players and this cannot be a consideration unless of have proof of rejected bids to the value of £26m. Think only Fulham in this league spent significant money since Covid, in Wilson and that’s on tick!