Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

IF come January we have new owners, the debt is cleared, the club, ground and training ground are whole and the P&S issues are dealt with, that would be the best place the club has been in for years IMO

Once the P&S issues are resolved, hopefully by January, the club could well be subjected to a points penalty, so punitive that relegation to Division One will be inevitable, despite the best efforts of Wayne Rooney and any prospective new owners. That is a real possibility and would not represent the best place the club has been in for years. Division One will bring further financial constraints upon the club.

Mel bought his initial 25% of the club on the eve of the play-off final versus QPR in 2014. He completed his buy out from GSE later that year. The club was in its best place since the turn of the millennium. It was debt free, following six years of austerity measures under GSE. The team were favourites to win promotion to the Premier League. Mel inherited a club that was in its best place for years. He leaves it to fight against relegation to Division One.

At the time he became owner, he claimed that as a local benefactor, he was in a position to do for Derby what the Coates family had done for Stoke. If his claim was ever real or true, then he has patently failed in that respect. We have lately been referred to as a basket case of a club by some journalists. It is hard to mount a defence to those sentiments.

In my 60 years of watching the club, I have seen all the peaks and the lows that any single club could deliver. When I started in 1961, the club was governed by a penny pinching board of directors, who never invested any of their own money in the club. The only source of income in those days came from the supporters who paid to watch the team. The gates were low. The lack of ambition from the directors meant that we relied on the skilled managership of Harry Storer and Tim Ward to sustain us as a mediocre Division Two (now the Championship) club. Their contribution was much appreciated. When the board sacked Tim Ward, I joined many on the pitch at the BBG chanting 'Sack the board we want Ward.'

Then, fortuitously, we had the miracle of Clough and Taylor who were forced out when we were on the brink of conquering Europe. We then had to stand by and watch them achieve goal that along the A52, after Dave Mackay had kept us at the top for three more years. We went into decline and were rescued from extinction in the High Court in 1984 when Stuart Webb brokered a last minute deal with the taxman in the High Court, to deliver us into the hands of the awful Robert Maxwell. We regained some respectability under Arthur Cox and Jim Smith in the years that followed until the mostly disappointing years since 2000. In that time we have experienced some  perilous financial near misses but escaped. Now we are walking the tightrope again. It seems we never learn.

Mel is handing over a club that is in its worst place for years, through his reckless stewardship. If we come out administration with new owners, their task will be far from easy over the next few years. Our respect among other clubs is at an all time low from the way Mel has dealt with  P&S. We will be operating under a business plan and transfer embargo, agreed with the EFL for at least two years. Those are limitations we could do without.

I can't share your optimism of just how rosy things will be come January. The administrators express 95% optimism of the club surviving. Other commentators do not see beyond a 50% chance. We still have to negotiate a very rocky road.

If that is really your rose tinted view of how things are, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. COYR.

[Oldben]

6 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The appeal is against administration, not P&S. Any successful appeal can only be on the grounds of Covid, or more accurately, the club not going into admin if it wasn't for Covid.

From what @angieram said (or my memory recalls her saying), it's a case of agreeing a business plan with the EFL or it's an embargo for 2 years.

If its purely on the grounds of covid, then I think its like wigan and we will fail the appeal.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Oldben said:

If its purely on the grounds of covid, then I think its like wigan and we will fail the appeal.

Wigan's Chinese owner put the club into administration just a few weeks after acquiring it and only three months after the EFL fixtures were suspended after the first lockdown. The administration was controversial but it had little chance of winning an appeal against the 12 point penalty because the financial hardships had barely affected any club at that time.

I think our appeal has far more chance of success as it is based upon the £20m revenue loss incurred after the whole period of the Covid related losses.. While not guaranteed as things never can be with the EFL, there is some grounds for optimism.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Guest

[Oldben]

7 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Wigan's Chinese owner put the club into administration just a few weeks after acquiring it and only three months after the EFL fixtures were suspended after the first lockdown. The administration was controversial but it had little chance of winning an appeal against the 12 point penalty because they financial hardships had barely affected any club at that time.

I think our appeal has far more chance of success as it is based upon the £20m revenue loss incurred after the whole period of the Covid related losses.. While not guaranteed as things never can be with the EFL, there is some grounds for optimism.

If the efl gave into this, wouldn't it set precedent which is something I doubt th efl are keen to do.

[atherstoneram]

5 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Wigan's Chinese owner put the club into administration just a few weeks after acquiring it and only three months after the EFL fixtures were suspended after the first lockdown. The administration was controversial but it had little chance of winning an appeal against the 12 point penalty because they financial hardships had barely affected any club at that time.

I think our appeal has far more chance of success as it is based upon the £20m revenue loss incurred after the whole period of the Covid related losses.. While not guaranteed as things never can be with the EFL, there is some grounds for optimism.

All clubs suffered losses during the Covid period that wasn't just particular to Derby but no other club has gone into administration. It is going to be hard to prove that Covid was the cause when other clubs have survived. It needs to be proved as the cause not as a factor.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Oldben said:

If the efl gave into this, wouldn't it set precedent which is something I doubt th efl are keen to do.

I think if the case was heard under the jurisdiction of a civil court, then we would have a good chance of success. EFL hearings should be decided upon the same fair scrutiny of evidence that a court seeks to deliver, where setting precedents is common when judgements are being delivered.

However, I understand your lack of confidence in possible EFL judgements, given our recent experience in their hands.

[sage]

1 hour ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Once the P&S issues are resolved, hopefully by January, the club could well be subjected to a points penalty, so punitive that relegation to Division One will be inevitable, despite the best efforts of Wayne Rooney and any prospective new owners. That is a real possibility and would not represent the best place the club has been in for years. Division One will bring further financial constraints upon the club.

Mel bought his initial 25% of the club on the eve of the play-off final versus QPR in 2014. He completed his buy out from GSE later that year. The club was in its best place since the turn of the millennium. It was debt free, following six years of austerity measures under GSE. The team were favourites to win promotion to the Premier League. Mel inherited a club that was in its best place for years. He leaves it to fight against relegation to Division One.

At the time he became owner, he claimed that as a local benefactor, he was in a position to do for Derby what the Coates family had done for Stoke. If his claim was ever real or true, then he has patently failed in that respect. We have lately been referred to as a basket case of a club by some journalists. It is hard to mount a defence to those sentiments.

In my 60 years of watching the club, I have seen all the peaks and the lows that any single club could deliver. When I started in 1961, the club was governed by a penny pinching board of directors, who never invested any of their own money in the club. The only source of income in those days came from the supporters who paid to watch the team. The gates were low. The lack of ambition from the directors meant that we relied on the skilled managership of Harry Storer and Tim Ward to sustain us as a mediocre Division Two (now the Championship) club. Their contribution was much appreciated. When the board sacked Tim Ward, I joined many on the pitch at the BBG chanting 'Sack the board we want Ward.'

Then, fortuitously, we had the miracle of Clough and Taylor who were forced out when we were on the brink of conquering Europe. We then had to stand by and watch them achieve goal that along the A52, after Dave Mackay had kept us at the top for three more years. We went into decline and were rescued from extinction in the High Court in 1984 when Stuart Webb brokered a last minute deal with the taxman in the High Court, to deliver us into the hands of the awful Robert Maxwell. We regained some respectability under Arthur Cox and Jim Smith in the years that followed until the mostly disappointing years since 2000. In that time we have experienced some  perilous financial near misses but escaped. Now we are walking the tightrope again. It seems we never learn.

Mel is handing over a club that is in its worst place for years, through his reckless stewardship. If we come out administration with new owners, their task will be far from easy over the next few years. Our respect among other clubs is at an all time low from the way Mel has dealt with  P&S. We will be operating under a business plan and transfer embargo, agreed with the EFL for at least two years. Those are limitations we could do without.

I can't share your optimism of just how rosy things will be come January. The administrators express 95% optimism of the club surviving. Other commentators do not see beyond a 50% chance. We still have to negotiate a very rocky road.

If that is really your rose tinted view of how things are, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. COYR.

Which ones? How do they compare in experience and knowledge to the administrators?

[Gaspode]

20 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

All clubs suffered losses during the Covid period that wasn't just particular to Derby but no other club has gone into administration. It is going to be hard to prove that Covid was the cause when other clubs have survived. It needs to be proved as the cause not as a factor.

Which is almost certainly why the statement released when we went into admin pointed out that we were the ONLY Championship club not to be granted the £8M+ loan to help deal with the impact of covid (thereby meaning we were more susceptible to the effects) - and also explains why the EFL are now back-tracking on their original statement that we didn't qualify for the money (due to the criteria that they set out) but rather that we didn't apply for it (more than likely because they told us in advance that we wouldn't get it).

The hows and why's of the loan are actually irrelevant though - the fact that we didn't get the money makes us an exceptional case and gives us grounds to appeal....

Edited October 11, 2021 by Gaspode

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

All clubs suffered losses during the Covid period that wasn't just particular to Derby but no other club has gone into administration. It is going to be hard to prove that Covid was the cause when other clubs have survived. It needs to be proved as the cause not as a factor.

True but I think our chance of success will revolve around a legal argument around whether or not our administration was caused SOLELY by the revenue losses incurred by Covid 19. While our overall debts are much greater than the £20m Covid related losses, the club will argue that administration would not have occurred at this time had it not been for Covid and therefore the pandemic SOLELY forced the issue. Without Covid19 it would not have happened and the club could continue to trade.

Conversely, the EFL will argue that there were other factors beside Covid that brought about our demise and the argument around SOLELY cannot be proved. It will all come down to which argument is more convincing to the appeals panel. We just have to wait and see. Bear in mind that as on our last experience at the EFL, where the club won most of the arguments, there will be eminent lawyers among the panel members. Fingers crossed.

[Mostyn6]

28 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

All clubs suffered losses during the Covid period that wasn't just particular to Derby but no other club has gone into administration. It is going to be hard to prove that Covid was the cause when other clubs have survived. It needs to be proved as the cause not as a factor.

Other clubs are irrelevant as they have nothing to appeal. All Derby have to prove is that without Covid lockdown etc, they would’ve avoided administration. 

[BucksRam]

2 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Other clubs are irrelevant as they have nothing to appeal. All Derby have to prove is that without Covid lockdown etc, they would’ve avoided administration. 

Exactly, and a positive here is it's not emotive - i.e. had Mel been appealing it could be seen as "here he goes again".  It's a completely impartial group who have clearly been looking into the books, sought advice and feel we have a solid case to appeal.  If not, they wouldn't have done it.  

[NottsRammy]

If you ask me i think the efl and the administrators have already done a deal . Where going to get 6 points knocked off the admin penalty Buttttttttttt only if Derby accept a possible 9 points from the accounting mess up . So a total of -15 or maybe if we are ultra lucky -6 for them both . Which would tie into rooneys -12 we have a chance of getting out idea . 

I honestly think the efl do not want to see a club the size of Derby in a lower division even if the prat Steve Gibson does . 

Watch this space because i think all the deals have already been done on the penalty side of things , its just who is taking us over . 

Edited October 11, 2021 by NottsRammy

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

21 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Which is almost certainly why the statement released when we went into admin pointed out that we were the ONLY Championship club not to be granted the £8M+ loan to help deal with the impact of covid (thereby meaning we were more susceptible to the effects) - and also explains why the EFL are now back-tracking on their original statement that we didn't qualify for the money (due to the criteria that they set out) but rather that we didn't apply for it (more than likely because they told us in advance that we wouldn't get it).

The hows and why's of the loan are actually irrelevant though - the fact that we didn't get the money makes us an exceptional case and gives us grounds to appeal....

If the reason we were unable to get the loan is because by our own incompetence/poor management we were not eligible for it then then that kills the appeal stone dead if that is what we are basing it on.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, sage said:

Which ones? How do they compare in experience and knowledge to the administrators?

It is immaterial, both the media and the administrators are expressing opinions not facts. Neither opinion matters. Only the eventual outcomes matter. The point is that opinions vary. i personally think the administrators estimates are over optimistic but i am still optimistic that a buyer will be found. COYR.

[ripleyram88]

I think the main issue with Wigan losing their appeal is that it came out that the new owner was contacting insolvency experts about administration before he had even taken over the club. 

 

You can hardly blame it on covid when he had planned on putting them in admin before he even bought them.

[Gaspode]

2 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

If the reason we were unable to get the loan is because by our own incompetence/poor management we were not eligible for it then then that kills the appeal stone dead if that is what we are basing it on.

Not at all - my view is that the appeal will be saying that we were impacted by covid to an extent that we were unable to continue to operate as a going concern - they will say the loan would have allowed us to continue to operate and that ALL of the other Chamionship clubs got that money (hence why we're in admin and no-one else is....). The fact that we couldn't get the loan because the EFL laid down rules that we couldn't meet (potentally because of the protracted appeals process that the EFL oversaw) is a minor part of the argument.

The key part is that the loan would have allowed us to trade through the covid storm - without it we were tipped over the edge and therefore can legitimately claim that we were excessively impacted by covid. All we need to do is prove that covid was the reason we went under - the underlying reasons why we were sailing so close to the edge are irrelevant if we could have continued to trade without covid impacting us (or alternatively if we'd had the extra fiunding that the other clubs had to help keep us afloat)

[Guest]

The EFL said we did not meet the criteria for the loan, not least because we still haven't filed accounts with Companies House since 2018 and our ability to repay it was doubtful. For whatever reason we didn't apply for the loan.

An application would have at least helped!!!

[Tamworthram]

37 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

The EFL said we did not meet the criteria for the loan, not least because we still haven't filed accounts with Companies House since 2018 and our ability to repay it was doubtful. For whatever reason we didn't apply for the loan.

An application would have at least helped!!!

I don’t think actually making an application would have made the slightest difference. It would have been a frivolous application as we clearly didn’t meet the criteria and I think that is an acceptable reason for explaining why we didn’t apply. 
 

What’s more important is that we were in dialogue with the EFL about the loan (as our request for an extension to the application period was declined).

[atherstoneram]

2 hours ago, Gaspode said:

Which is almost certainly why the statement released when we went into admin pointed out that we were the ONLY Championship club not to be granted the £8M+ loan to help deal with the impact of covid (thereby meaning we were more susceptible to the effects) - and also explains why the EFL are now back-tracking on their original statement that we didn't qualify for the money (due to the criteria that they set out) but rather that we didn't apply for it (more than likely because they told us in advance that we wouldn't get it).

The hows and why's of the loan are actually irrelevant though - the fact that we didn't get the money makes us an exceptional case and gives us grounds to appeal....

And we also had an owner who was only prepared to keep putting enough money in to keep the club ticking over and was reluctant to give an assurance when asked by the EFL if the club would be able to fulfil this seasons fixtures.

We don't know what MM was putting into the club to cover monthly debts so it is understandable if they told us in advance we didn't qualify. If the owner wasn't willing to cover debts why should the EFL.

[atherstoneram]

2 hours ago, Gaspode said:

Which is almost certainly why the statement released when we went into admin pointed out that we were the ONLY Championship club not to be granted the £8M+ loan to help deal with the impact of covid (thereby meaning we were more susceptible to the effects) - and also explains why the EFL are now back-tracking on their original statement that we didn't qualify for the money (due to the criteria that they set out) but rather that we didn't apply for it (more than likely because they told us in advance that we wouldn't get it).

The hows and why's of the loan are actually irrelevant though - the fact that we didn't get the money makes us an exceptional case and gives us grounds to appeal....

Of course it doesn't, we don't know how the club was being run prior to Covid not just when Covid struck