Derby V Burton match day thread

[Kernow]

I always find it so amusing when Rammie joins in with the celebrations. A grown man dressed as a farmyard animal at the hoardings giving it to the crowd as if he’s just banged in a 20 yard volley himself.

[Anag Ram]

15 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Assuming you meant “full” back 😀. Sorry, just me being silly. Yes I did mean left back. I never did know my left from my right 😀

Doh!

Karma 😊

[Srg]

1 minute ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Right up until their first we looked in control. Burton offered nothing, with two well-worked goals from us. Collins looks better with another striker occupying another of the central defenders, and while John-Jules didn't have anything more than a solid performance, he certainly didn't do too much wrong. I thought Steele was overly critical of him post-match, he's not found any form yet due to his injuries and how carefully they are managing him, but I've seen enough to be glad he's extended to the end of the season (though it's not been formally announced yet).

Then we did not react at all to their changes, and give away two silly goals. Three players marking one man while Seddon marches on and scores, and a really poor moment from Elder to let Hugill clean through. I sympathise with Elder though, he's clearly lacking match fitness, and it showed last night. Thought the midfield was mostly absent again, but I suspect this is down to the way we're playing - we're bypassing them by going wide at any opportunity.

It did seem like the moment we were discussing that if we got a 3rd we could really go on and get a hatful, we seemed to immediately hit self-destruct. Agree with the first paragraph completely. Steele needs to be packed off, he's overly negative so often.

[Jon Bon Pony]

37 minutes ago, McMuffin said:

I get what you are saying and I agree with it. But did Bird really win the ball much really? What is it with Bird why does he get so much protection that’s often leads to people making false stats up to protect his abjectivity? 
Over 20 years I’ve never seen anything like it with regards to over ratedness 

In terms of winning the ball:

Joint most interceptions last night of any player and joint most ball recoveries by Derby players (Joe Powell had one more).

So he seems to win it plenty.

I mean, call it 'false stats' if you want, but that just seems like a defence mechanism for not having to change your mind.

For me he passes the stats test and the eye test. He goes about his job and does it well most weeks. I think the bigger issue is, Warne wants to play two centrally and both the ones he uses are more suited to being part of a three. Given the limitations in mobility of both players (neither have rockets strapped to their boots) they both do a fine job. Fans have spoken a lot in the past about square pegs in round holes regarding strikers playing out wide etc. but to me our midfield is a big example of it, yet it never gets mentioned. It's just, our midfield gets run through every week, well of course it does, we don't don't have the personnel to play two in the middle.

Edited January 16 by Jon Bon Pony

[Caerphilly Ram]

28 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

What do you think are Warne’s limitations and strengths then?

Limitations;

- the big one for me is his in game management, always has been. He can, as he’s done on a few occasions, make bold substitutions to positively affect the game. However, I feel it happens in a reactive way and I would rather see it done proactively…mainly to take away any nerves. It was a big feature of last season that an opposition manager would tweak tactics at half time and we wouldn’t adapt until it was too late. I want to see him just get the changes and subs done a bit sooner, whether we’re winning/drawing/losing.

- I guess the other one that sticks out to me, is the lack of control in games. I don’t subscribe to the reductive hoofball labels some throw about, and have said many times I think Warne’s style is like Diet-Klopp. We set up to blow teams off the park with pressing, high energy and directness (which I enjoy), but the side effects of that seem to be an aversion to taking the sting out of the game and controlling the pace occasionally. It’s not a big issue for me as I accept that’s how we play and mostly enjoy it, but it does strike me as something he is either inflexible on OR is struggling to coach into the team….either way I see it as a limitation.

Strengths;

- motivation, I think he’s got the group tight knit and working towards a shared goal. A lot of which I put down to his focus on character in recruitment.

- fitness, we (mostly) look fitter and more resilient than others sides at this level.

- the tactics (sat in both camps) can work brilliantly when executed, which is what leads to the next points….

- goals, we’re scoring lots through his approach

- away form, benefits from his tactics.

Probably some other bits but I’m meant to be delivering some training so should maybe pay attention. In case you’ve misunderstood my point, I’m a Warne fan and have always preached patience, however I’m not blinkered in that I can see he has his flaws (in my opinion) 

[YorkshireRam]

1 hour ago, Barney1991 said:

Before the mistake I thought elder was having a good game tbh. The cross was delightful for the second I just wanted to see him carry the ball a bit more but like with everything it doesn’t matter if he was good for that period the mistake will live long in the memory because of how bad it was and costly 

The Keogh/Roos/Bradley effect

[Eddie]

59 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

I heard that throughout the game . Let’s be honest , some of our fans constantly did it to Billy Sharpe without any real evidence.

It's an 'intelligence' thing, coupled with peer pressure. A bit like the person who says "Here, hold my beer and watch this".

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, silverback said:

Point well made, we have just been failing to get that "rub off the green" in a number of games, but still managing to get the points.

 

I had this feeling for a while that once all the runes fall the right way, somebody is gonna get a right hammering from us.

 

Hope its Lincoln   🦍

When the ball was delivered into the box Burton got bodies in the way of the rub of the ball didn't fall our way, In games like these where again the lions possession is ours it's important to not lose your head and carry on what you've been doing, The football wasn't pretty after Burton got their 2nd for some 10-15 mins but a bit of thought and a little bit of luck Hourihane's goal got us there, That ball was spinning like a top and to control and hit it as he did got a yell out of me 😉  

[Caerphilly Ram]

That Hourihane strike… 😮‍💨 

Also, who’s that fella in the number 8 shirt challenging for the header, that takes out their defenders and causes the chaos for Wilson to attempt a volley before Hourihane smashes it home, is it…. Could it possibly be…. Max “hE doES NuFfink” Bird?! 🤔 😉 

 

Edited January 16 by Caerphilly Ram

[Andicis]

18 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

That Hourihane strike… 😮‍💨 

Also, who’s that fella in the number 8 shirt challenging for the header, that takes out their defenders and causes the chaos for Wilson to attempt a volley before Hourihane smashes it home, is it…. Could it possibly be…. Max “hE doES NuFfink” Bird?! 🤔 😉 

 

I mean in the words of Roy Keane, that's his job. It wasn't a major contribution, just the minimum expectation really. People have fair criticisms of Max Bird more than just he "does nuffink".

[Gabby'sThighs]

1 hour ago, Barney1991 said:

Before the mistake I thought elder was having a good game tbh. The cross was delightful for the second I just wanted to see him carry the ball a bit more but like with everything it doesn’t matter if he was good for that period the mistake will live long in the memory because of how bad it was and costly 

Exactly. I thought Elder was okay overall, he put that lovely cross in, but the mistake was awful. He's rusty, and it's unfortunate that his slip directly led to a goal. It also goes to show that, for all we slag off the standard of League One, a fraction-of-a-second brain fart like Elder's can be ruthlessly punished.

Interestingly, I haven't seen Nelson get any flak for the first goal, when he sat off Seddon and allowed him to shoot. I think this is because Nelson has been consistently very good all season he gets leeway (I think I'm right in saying he's played every minute of every game so far...), whereas Elder has been injured and struggled to get going. We need Elder to get match-fit and have to accept some wobbles.

It's frustrating to see the same old niggly complaints on here when we should be excited about being 1 point off top!

[trappatoni]

Bird - I like him.   Think he can play in a midfield 2 - Warne said he  topped the running stats in pre-season, but when so many other teams play a 3 unless you have Kante x 2 in there you are going to have to accept sometimes their numbers will tell.   I would like to see him run beyond a bit more but possibly the rest of the midfield 4 don't offer enough protection. 

Elder - by no means am I writing him off but offered nothing going forwards and the error was calamitous.  Now if Sibley has a game like that he's instantly dropped.  

John Jules - yes did nothing wrong but didn't do enough.   I actually do think we need to stick with him because you can tell he has the quality and physicality to succeed he just had a quiet game as all players do.  

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

5 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I mean in the words of Roy Keane, that's his job. It wasn't a major contribution, just the minimum expectation really. People have fair criticisms of Max Bird more than just he "does nuffink".

I was just messing, it was meant light heartedly 

[eddielewis]

2 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Very broadbrush, please explain first sentence and what he gets away with.

Sorry it did seem a bit broadbrush hopefully this is a bit more detail

Tactically he clearly asks the players to get it out to the forwards as clearly and aggressively as possible which works NML is a nightmare 1 on 1 for the opposition but this sometimes unnecessarily results in rushed build up play and losing possession at times where just need a spell of keeping the ball centrally. Defensively the midfield flat 2 expose the defence when the both wing backs are high up as they are in no man's land to understand to either keep their space centrally or the space left the LB/RB. Burton's first and recently Peterborough's first goal of where if we do not keep the ball well out wide or there is not enough nuance than just a telegraphed pass to the wide men when everybody has committed we can get punished easily. 

There seems to be hesitancy to adapt the numbers in the midfield when we are outnumbered or when an opposition is sitting with a mid/low block and through that it seems we make changes a bit too late. John Jules for Thompson sub should have been made in the 60th not the 84th. I understand he wants to keep the opposition penned in and wary of us with two up top which again works most of the time but as soon as it was 2-1 the midfield needed shoring up.

I do think he gets away with these things in league 1 due to the level of opposition not taking their chances when we do have these 15-20 min spells of panic. We have to be aware better opposition will take those chances with teams around us with Bolton, Portsmouth, Blackpool, Barnsley, Stevenage still left to play as Peterborough showed. I don't want to seem overtly negative towards him because we're doing really well (must emphasise!!) and all we need to do is carry on as we are and we should get promotion and I just think last night showed there are bug bares to Warne that may be the contributing factor as why he has 3 relegations as well as 3 promotions.

 

[sage]

56 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Limitations;

- the big one for me is his in game management, always has been. He can, as he’s done on a few occasions, make bold substitutions to positively affect the game. However, I feel it happens in a reactive way and I would rather see it done proactively…mainly to take away any nerves. It was a big feature of last season that an opposition manager would tweak tactics at half time and we wouldn’t adapt until it was too late. I want to see him just get the changes and subs done a bit sooner, whether we’re winning/drawing/losing.

- I guess the other one that sticks out to me, is the lack of control in games. I don’t subscribe to the reductive hoofball labels some throw about, and have said many times I think Warne’s style is like Diet-Klopp. We set up to blow teams off the park with pressing, high energy and directness (which I enjoy), but the side effects of that seem to be an aversion to taking the sting out of the game and controlling the pace occasionally. It’s not a big issue for me as I accept that’s how we play and mostly enjoy it, but it does strike me as something he is either inflexible on OR is struggling to coach into the team….either way I see it as a limitation.

Strengths;

- motivation, I think he’s got the group tight knit and working towards a shared goal. A lot of which I put down to his focus on character in recruitment.

- fitness, we (mostly) look fitter and more resilient than others sides at this level.

- the tactics (sat in both camps) can work brilliantly when executed, which is what leads to the next points….

- goals, we’re scoring lots through his approach

- away form, benefits from his tactics.

Probably some other bits but I’m meant to be delivering some training so should maybe pay attention. In case you’ve misunderstood my point, I’m a Warne fan and have always preached patience, however I’m not blinkered in that I can see he has his flaws (in my opinion) 

Excellent post

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, Barney1991 said:

Before the mistake I thought elder was having a good game tbh. The cross was delightful for the second I just wanted to see him carry the ball a bit more but like with everything it doesn’t matter if he was good for that period the mistake will live long in the memory because of how bad it was and costly 

Elder has been out for some time, Patrice(Burton)made it hard for him, Their 2nd wasn't solely down to him...imo, He's left on his own while every one in chasing the 3rd goal, A cracking through ball a slight slip and the lads through on goal.

Just like JJ...Elder has to build up match fitness...It'll come with game time, But when Forsyth gets fit he's our number 3 👍

[Sparkle]

Should been comfortable last night but two very poor bits of defending cost us goals which were very well taken by Burton 

we do have a tendency to totally disappear for periods of games but we got the vital 3 points in the end - just 

[Ghost of Clough]

It's worth remembering it was only Elder's first league start since September. It'll take him a few games to get up to speed but I thought he was very solid up until the mistake for their equaliser. Elder and Sibley will be good enough until Forsyth is back. By which point, we can judge if he deserves to keep a starting spot over Forsyth.

[Spanish]

50 minutes ago, Gabby'sThighs said:

Exactly. I thought Elder was okay overall, he put that lovely cross in, but the mistake was awful. He's rusty, and it's unfortunate that his slip directly led to a goal. It also goes to show that, for all we slag off the standard of League One, a fraction-of-a-second brain fart like Elder's can be ruthlessly punished.

Interestingly, I haven't seen Nelson get any flak for the first goal, when he sat off Seddon and allowed him to shoot. I think this is because Nelson has been consistently very good all season he gets leeway (I think I'm right in saying he's played every minute of every game so far...), whereas Elder has been injured and struggled to get going. We need Elder to get match-fit and have to accept some wobbles.

It's frustrating to see the same old niggly complaints on here when we should be excited about being 1 point off top!

bit concerned that Elder has a significant confidence issue to deal with which won't be helped by last night

[Spanish]

50 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

Bird - I like him.   Think he can play in a midfield 2 - Warne said he  topped the running stats in pre-season, but when so many other teams play a 3 unless you have Kante x 2 in there you are going to have to accept sometimes their numbers will tell.   I would like to see him run beyond a bit more but possibly the rest of the midfield 4 don't offer enough protection. 

Elder - by no means am I writing him off but offered nothing going forwards and the error was calamitous.  Now if Sibley has a game like that he's instantly dropped.  

John Jules - yes did nothing wrong but didn't do enough.   I actually do think we need to stick with him because you can tell he has the quality and physicality to succeed he just had a quiet game as all players do.  

 

we see things differently,  JJ had an a part  for goal 1 and made 2 other opportunities that should/could have been put away.  Elder had a part in the 2nd goal