Derby V Burton match day thread

[Returning ram]

21 minutes ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Not sure where this idea that people don't understand that there are 11 opposition players on the pitch comes from, that it's inevitable the other team will have a good spell / throw everything at you when you're in the lead, and that there's nothing you can do to stop it.

I've watched Derby put out pee poor performances too many times to count over the years, seen many matches where we've been dominated from first whistle to last without looking like we could lay a glove on the opposition, read countless posts to that effect from people complaining that we were toothless, offered no threat in games, were lacking effort etc. People said it plenty under Cocu.

Yet when the shoe's on the other foot...

Where have people said, that there is nothing you can do about it ?

For me Burton got a lifeline out of nothing, committed players forward and were in control for that period. The point around 11 opponents being on the field, is that goals change games and confidence, there is nothing you can do about their attitude, you can of course try to counteract it.
 

Having just watched the second half again during my lunch as it was on sky, even for that period, they didn't create much and we appeared to be content soaking it up and trying to hit them on the break, it was ironic they did that to us. I also noticed the part Barks played in that 3rd goal, picking a loose ball up and playing a good pass to the wing.

[Ram-Alf]

51 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I agree with that, I didn’t last night think it was all Elder’s fault and I still feel the same today. He’s made an error, for sure, however I don’t know why we needed to leave him as the only man back when we were in the lead at that point. It’s a moot point now I guess, I just don’t think he’s as bad as some make out. His cross played a part in the second goal we scored, his clearing header led to the counter in which NML nearly scored then he made up the ground to get on the rebound and hit the target himself with a defender or the keeper blocking it on the line. I’m happy to give him more time.

This is the point, Some fans see the negative while others see the positive, Scapegoating is fare game for those who see the game differently to others...Unfortunately this is league1...not the top end of the EPL, Until we can splurge/spunk millions of £s on players then it's the Elders of this world who were our targets last summer.

It's those who pull on a shirt and do nowt but collect their wages at the end of the month...Thankfully we have none of those 🤷‍♂️

[sage]

One thing I noticed yesterday re the first goal and a similar situation in the first half.

Wilson being too close to NML whilst he is being challenged or NML taking risk when Wilson is too close/looking to run past him.

They had an argument in the first half and then it happened again for the goal.

Having said that, it was a foul on NML IMO

[On the Ram Page]

3 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Limitations;

- the big one for me is his in game management, always has been. He can, as he’s done on a few occasions, make bold substitutions to positively affect the game. However, I feel it happens in a reactive way and I would rather see it done proactively…mainly to take away any nerves. It was a big feature of last season that an opposition manager would tweak tactics at half time and we wouldn’t adapt until it was too late. I want to see him just get the changes and subs done a bit sooner, whether we’re winning/drawing/losing.

- I guess the other one that sticks out to me, is the lack of control in games. I don’t subscribe to the reductive hoofball labels some throw about, and have said many times I think Warne’s style is like Diet-Klopp. We set up to blow teams off the park with pressing, high energy and directness (which I enjoy), but the side effects of that seem to be an aversion to taking the sting out of the game and controlling the pace occasionally. It’s not a big issue for me as I accept that’s how we play and mostly enjoy it, but it does strike me as something he is either inflexible on OR is struggling to coach into the team….either way I see it as a limitation.

Strengths;

- motivation, I think he’s got the group tight knit and working towards a shared goal. A lot of which I put down to his focus on character in recruitment.

- fitness, we (mostly) look fitter and more resilient than others sides at this level.

- the tactics (sat in both camps) can work brilliantly when executed, which is what leads to the next points….

- goals, we’re scoring lots through his approach

- away form, benefits from his tactics.

Probably some other bits but I’m meant to be delivering some training so should maybe pay attention. In case you’ve misunderstood my point, I’m a Warne fan and have always preached patience, however I’m not blinkered in that I can see he has his flaws (in my opinion) 

Thanks for that, that’s a good summary. 
 

in terms of his game management, I would argue that this has improved this season. I think it is a tricky area to judge, as those who criticise usually have the great benefit of hindsight. One the one hand, if we are playing reasonably well, you don’t want to change the momentum of the game by introducing substitutes, so timing I think is not always easy to judge. If the opposition are making tactical substitutions, which immediately affect the game, then I do agree you need to be more proactive to counter these. That is providing you have the personnel on the bench to produce the necessary effect. I would argue that currently he does not have all the bullets he needs to cover every situation. For example, regardless of who he bought on against Peterborough, they were always quicker and passed the ball better than us. Last night Burton were not better or the equal of us. They scored 2 goals from our mistakes, but never looked like scoring apart from that. We could quite easily have won 5-2, with the players we had on the pitch. 
 

The Control aspect is similar in a way. We need to pass the ball better  and possibly be a bit more boring and safer. That however bought huge criticisms earlier in the season. I would again argue that until we find a Thorne/Eustace midfielder who can be strong, tackle and break up attacks, we will always struggle to control games as much as we would like.

Agree with your strengths.

[Jimbo Ram]

44 minutes ago, Returning ram said:

Where have people said, that there is nothing you can do about it ?

For me Burton got a lifeline out of nothing, committed players forward and were in control for that period. The point around 11 opponents being on the field, is that goals change games and confidence, there is nothing you can do about their attitude, you can of course try to counteract it.
 

Having just watched the second half again during my lunch as it was on sky, even for that period, they didn't create much and we appeared to be content soaking it up and trying to hit them on the break, it was ironic they did that to us. I also noticed the part Barks played in that 3rd goal, picking a loose ball up and playing a good pass to the wing.

I watched the last 15 mins on my lunch and noticed his involvement too, he had a part in all 3 goals….Watching again, it wasn’t as nerve wracking knowing we had won but as Warney alluded to in his interview, it could have gone either way towards the end of the game.

[On the Ram Page]

3 hours ago, eddielewis said:

Sorry it did seem a bit broadbrush hopefully this is a bit more detail

Tactically he clearly asks the players to get it out to the forwards as clearly and aggressively as possible which works NML is a nightmare 1 on 1 for the opposition but this sometimes unnecessarily results in rushed build up play and losing possession at times where just need a spell of keeping the ball centrally. Defensively the midfield flat 2 expose the defence when the both wing backs are high up as they are in no man's land to understand to either keep their space centrally or the space left the LB/RB. Burton's first and recently Peterborough's first goal of where if we do not keep the ball well out wide or there is not enough nuance than just a telegraphed pass to the wide men when everybody has committed we can get punished easily. 

There seems to be hesitancy to adapt the numbers in the midfield when we are outnumbered or when an opposition is sitting with a mid/low block and through that it seems we make changes a bit too late. John Jules for Thompson sub should have been made in the 60th not the 84th. I understand he wants to keep the opposition penned in and wary of us with two up top which again works most of the time but as soon as it was 2-1 the midfield needed shoring up.

I do think he gets away with these things in league 1 due to the level of opposition not taking their chances when we do have these 15-20 min spells of panic. We have to be aware better opposition will take those chances with teams around us with Bolton, Portsmouth, Blackpool, Barnsley, Stevenage still left to play as Peterborough showed. I don't want to seem overtly negative towards him because we're doing really well (must emphasise!!) and all we need to do is carry on as we are and we should get promotion and I just think last night showed there are bug bares to Warne that may be the contributing factor as why he has 3 relegations as well as 3 promotions.

 

I agree with most of what you say. I would say though that we need to be able to pass the ball better than we do at the moment and that is the main reason our attacks break down, together with our lack of movement on the ball.

we do get overrun in midfield quite a bit, but again I would agree that he doesn’t have the right personnel in the squad to make the right adjustments. We need a Thorn/Eustace type player, which we haven’t got. Forman is the nearest to it but he appears to lack a bit of confidence presently and needs to think and move the ball a bit quicker than he currently does. Smith is the next best but has his many critics. I like Thompson’s work ethics but don’t think he is strong or quick enough to do the job either. Ideally we need to find a “Duncan Edwards” - a quicker, more aggressive, taller version of Hourihane to sit in front of the back 4.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, jimtastic56 said:

Yep , we don’t want the honest opinions of somebody with 5 promotions and has coached at Man C and Man Utd . Let’s have a “Happy Clapper” that can tell us how amazing things are all the time .

Oooh. Touched the nerve there then😀

I don’t think I’m a happy clapper and there’s nothing wrong with fair criticism and praise but I just find the way he says it, and also some of things he says rather irritating. 
 

Regarding his credentials, sure he’s far more qualified than probably all of us on this forum but, unless I’m mistaken, his playing and coaching experience is limited to the rather specialist role of goal keeper isn’t it?

Some of the pundits on Match of the Day have excellent records as players but that doesn’t mean they talk a lot of Sense.

Edited January 16 by Tamworthram

[BondJovi]

I don't overly think we have played well over the last 4 games. Last night was poor but we got the win.

The way we set up does leave us horribly exposed down the middle. Teams willing to run at us will cause us issues. Bird gets picked on, but defensively he is having to do the job of two players. I have long believed his biggest weakness is not imposing himself in games often enough but the way we play does not lend itself to that. We waste a lot of his skillset. A 3rd midfielder really should be the option.

That said, the way we play is perfect for NML and Barks to do their thing. Get it out to them and see what they can do. Some of our crosses seemed incredibly hopefull and I do wish we could try something different. I worry how much we are flogging the senior players in order to play this way.

Clearly we are scoring a lot of goals from crosses so what do I know. But what I would like to see is us take control of the game once infront, not sit back and give the opposition the go ahead to attack. 

I also think PW has to be more proactive with his subs. Bradley has become the Buxton sub of Nigel Clough days. It is a shame we let them back in as I thought last night would have been a great time to give Brown some minutes.

Hopefully the players we bring in this month will improve us rather than bloat the squad. We are nicely poised for what we all hope is an exciting next few months.

[On the Ram Page]

Possibly unlike anyone else, I have watched the whole match again today, with all the negative comments made last night ringing in my ears. What a load of tosh some people talk.

For 53 minutes Burton hardly had a kick in our box, we were so dominant. Scored one very good goal from a good move down the wing (a Warne special). Probably should have scored again when Mendis-Lang got through. Scored a second very good goal, good cross from Elder, and then 2 good headers from Barks & Collins.

Cue 53mins, casual NML, whether foul or not, possibly didn’t engage the runner quickly enough, but what a strike for their 1st goal. Not the first time this season NML has lost the ball and given the opposition opportunities to attack, but on this occasion we paid the price. We continue to attack and look ok but then disaster with a simple counterattack, where Elder was left wanting (either through lack of concentration, a stumble or whatever). Despite what some people said on the Forum last night, he has had a pretty good game up until that moment - yes there was a misplaced pass in the 1st half (slightly also Hourahane’s fault), a sliced clearance straight up in the air - but apart from that good. (Wilson also sliced a clearance straight up in the air in the very last minute - no groans or comment). Despite what some say Sibley was not an improvement, apart from the main error.

Understanably, we lost a bit of confidence having thrown away 2 goals and they had a spell of possession for a while, but often because of our misplaced passes. To be honest they never looked like scoring again. Despite what every says about brave little Burton, ( and they did put in a mighty shift for their new manager), we definitely deserved to win the game more comfortably than we did.

Thank goodness the players stayed composed till the end and didn’t try to force things, as we have done recently. We could easily have won the game 5/6-2. I wish some of the posters on here had stayed as composed because reading some of the posts on here is embarrassing.

if you disagree with me, I suggest you re- watch the match again - it wasn’t a bad viewing.

[duncanjwitham]

20 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

I don't overly think we have played well over the last 4 games. Last night was poor but we got the win.

The way we set up does leave us horribly exposed down the middle. Teams willing to run at us will cause us issues. Bird gets picked on, but defensively he is having to do the job of two players. I have long believed his biggest weakness is not imposing himself in games often enough but the way we play does not lend itself to that. We waste a lot of his skillset. A 3rd midfielder really should be the option.

That said, the way we play is perfect for NML and Barks to do their thing. Get it out to them and see what they can do. Some of our crosses seemed incredibly hopefull and I do wish we could try something different. I worry how much we are flogging the senior players in order to play this way.

Clearly we are scoring a lot of goals from crosses so what do I know. But what I would like to see is us take control of the game once infront, not sit back and give the opposition the go ahead to attack. 

I also think PW has to be more proactive with his subs. Bradley has become the Buxton sub of Nigel Clough days. It is a shame we let them back in as I thought last night would have been a great time to give Brown some minutes.

Hopefully the players we bring in this month will improve us rather than bloat the squad. We are nicely poised for what we all hope is an exciting next few months.

They don't even need to be running, just having a couple of guys stand in the middle of the pitch about 25 yards from our goal causes us problems.  That's basically what Bradford did, and what Burton started doing after they made the double sub.  This is the moment that NML loses the ball:

You can see Bird and Hourihane are both starting to bomb forwards, and they've got 2 guys completely free between our midfield and backline causing havoc.  Even if Seddon doesn't take the ball on himself, they're basically 3 on 2 from one simple loss of possession.

[ramsbottom]

5 hours ago, Gabby'sThighs said:

Exactly. I thought Elder was okay overall, he put that lovely cross in, but the mistake was awful. He's rusty, and it's unfortunate that his slip directly led to a goal. It also goes to show that, for all we slag off the standard of League One, a fraction-of-a-second brain fart like Elder's can be ruthlessly punished.

Interestingly, I haven't seen Nelson get any flak for the first goal, when he sat off Seddon and allowed him to shoot. I think this is because Nelson has been consistently very good all season he gets leeway (I think I'm right in saying he's played every minute of every game so far...), whereas Elder has been injured and struggled to get going. We need Elder to get match-fit and have to accept some wobbles.

It's frustrating to see the same old niggly complaints on here when we should be excited about being 1 point off top!

 

4 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

Elder has been out for some time, Patrice(Burton)made it hard for him, Their 2nd wasn't solely down to him...imo, He's left on his own while every one in chasing the 3rd goal, A cracking through ball a slight slip and the lads through on goal.

Just like JJ...Elder has to build up match fitness...It'll come with game time, But when Forsyth gets fit he's our number 3 👍

Same as you guys, I thought he had a solid game up until his mistake.  His cross for the 2nd was good and he put a good shift in considering it's his first league start for months.  Unfortunately it looks like he's going to be the new whipping boy until Collins hasn't scored for a few games.  I thought NML was equally as culpable for their first goal, letting Seddon muscle him off the ball instead of just giving it back to a defender was pretty crap play.  It's also worth mentioning that Elder was left in the lurch by the rest of the team going absolutely gung-ho in the build up to the 2nd.  I suspect everyone was a little too eager to get the 2 goal advantage back because there was no need for both our CBs to go marauding up field like they did...

[Crewton]

I really wish we could learn to celebrate winning goals in a more sober, dignified fashion, respecting the feelings of visiting supporters. I mean, they didn't literally want US to die, just the club most of us have supported all our lives, and our parents and grandparents before us, so perhaps in future we could restrict our celebrations to cap-waving, the throwing of betting slips in the air and 3 days of mourning for the hurt feelings of the poor wee mites?

 

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

 

Same as you guys, I thought he had a solid game up until his mistake.  His cross for the 2nd was good and he put a good shift in considering it's his first league start for months.  Unfortunately it looks like he's going to be the new whipping boy until Collins hasn't scored for a few games.  I thought NML was equally as culpable for their first goal, letting Seddon muscle him off the ball instead of just giving it back to a defender was pretty crap play.  It's also worth mentioning that Elder was left in the lurch by the rest of the team going absolutely gung-ho in the build up to the 2nd.  I suspect everyone was a little too eager to get the 2 goal advantage back because there was no need for both our CBs to go marauding up field like they did...

Most teams send both CBs up for corners. Usually, a couple of the smaller/quicker players hang back on the half way line (typically the full backs)

[trappatoni]

People saying NML lost the ball - it's a blatant foul he get's pushed and the guy kicks through his legs.  Now unless we are telling players to never stay on the ball under pressure how is he at fault? 

[ramsbottom]

49 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Possibly unlike anyone else, I have watched the whole match again today, with all the negative comments made last night ringing in my ears. What a load of tosh some people talk.

For 53 minutes Burton hardly had a kick in our box, we were so dominant. Scored one very good goal from a good move down the wing (a Warne special). Probably should have scored again when Mendis-Lang got through. Scored a second very good goal, good cross from Elder, and then 2 good headers from Barks & Collins.

Cue 53mins, casual NML, whether foul or not, possibly didn’t engage the runner quickly enough, but what a strike for their 1st goal. Not the first time this season NML has lost the ball and given the opposition opportunities to attack, but on this occasion we paid the price. We continue to attack and look ok but then disaster with a simple counterattack, where Elder was left wanting (either through lack of concentration, a stumble or whatever). Despite what some people said on the Forum last night, he has had a pretty good game up until that moment - yes there was a misplaced pass in the 1st half (slightly also Hourahane’s fault), a sliced clearance straight up in the air - but apart from that good. (Wilson also sliced a clearance straight up in the air in the very last minute - no groans or comment). Despite what some say Sibley was not an improvement, apart from the main error.

Understanably, we lost a bit of confidence having thrown away 2 goals and they had a spell of possession for a while, but often because of our misplaced passes. To be honest they never looked like scoring again. Despite what every says about brave little Burton, ( and they did put in a mighty shift for their new manager), we definitely deserved to win the game more comfortably than we did.

Thank goodness the players stayed composed till the end and didn’t try to force things, as we have done recently. We could easily have won the game 5/6-2. I wish some of the posters on here had stayed as composed because reading some of the posts on here is embarrassing.

if you disagree with me, I suggest you re- watch the match again - it wasn’t a bad viewing.

It's always those with knee jerk reactions that are the loudest.  Up until the errors we were well in control and cruising.  It's alright folk moaning about Warne not reacting to their changes, but it's not like they stuck 5 up front, they simply changed a couple of players (and maybe) told those coming on to be a bit more positive.  It's not like they unlocked us with peak Barcelona tiki-taka either, they were gifted to them...

[ramsbottom]

9 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

People saying NML lost the ball - it's a blatant foul he get's pushed and the guy kicks through his legs.  Now unless we are telling players to never stay on the ball under pressure how is he at fault? 

Seddon is about 10 stone wet through, there's no way he should be out muscling NML like he did.  People can't pull Elder apart for his error and not appoint some blame for their first at Nat's door.  It was sloppy.

[ramsbottom]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Most teams send both CBs up for corners. Usually, a couple of the smaller/quicker players hang back on the half way line (typically the full backs)

Exactly a couple, not 1 on 1.  That's school boy basics...

Edited January 16 by ramsbottom

[Jon Bon Pony]

10 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

Seddon is about 10 stone wet through, there's no way he should be out muscling NML like he did.  People can't pull Elder apart for his error and not appoint some blame for their first at Nat's door.  It was sloppy.

Agree with this. Sitting in the West it looked like it'd be a soft free kick if he'd given it. And since the ref was letting a lot go, he was never giving that.

[HorsforthRam]

Didn’t like the Burton fans. 

[Ghost of Clough]

16 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

It's always those with knee jerk reactions that are the loudest.  Up until the errors we were well in control and cruising.  It's alright folk moaning about Warne not reacting to their changes, but it's not like they stuck 5 up front, they simply changed a couple of players (and maybe) told those coming on to be a bit more positive.  It's not like they unlocked us with peak Barcelona tiki-taka either, they were gifted to them...

To many, a change at half time was needed. The calls for changes intensified shortly after our 2nd goal as we had no control of the game and were struggling to pass the ball at times. It shouldn't have taken 37 minutes and 2 goals conceded to realise a change was required.