The latest from the club via Chris Coles

[MACKWORTHRAM]

8 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Imagine if there's a Derby fan out there who's been in a coma since 2015 and just woke up 

If there is I bet he's asked to go back in the coma

[brady1993]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

From a financial point of view you should have the likes of Rawson as emergency cover at CB, rather than have Pearce or Shackell sitting on their bums for the entire season except for a 10 minute spell.
You have Hanson in their because he offers emergency cover in multiple positions, rather than having 7 CMs on more than £20k, a 3rd LB on over £10k and similar at RB.

Lowe was no better at 22 than he was at 18, because he didn't get the football his ability deserved.4 years of lost game time, and you don't think that hindered his potential? The others similar, but to a lesser extent.

We should have worked on a rough prinicple of two senior players for every positon with the third player being filled by someone from the academy. 

We should have decided on a style of play and arguably a primary formation and stuck to it. So that recruitment and academy development could be strongly aligned to it.

We should have only ever considered managers who bought into the above and only recruited players who fit into the above mould and either replaced an outgoing or were a significant improvement on the current playing staff.

When handing out contracts for players we should have strongly had in mind where talent lay in the academy and whether it was coming up in this position.

But all of that would have required genuine vision to pull off and the conviction to follow through on it right from the off whereas MM shot himself in the foot on day one of this project with the 15/16 transfer window. 

[EraniosSocks]

10 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Imagine if there's a Derby fan out there who's been in a coma since 2015 and just woke up 

“Has George Thorne won the Balon’dor yet!? Can't wait to see us pushing for the top 6”

Edited August 5, 2021 by EraniosSocks

[Tombo]

3 hours ago, Duracell said:

We need a new club motto. What’s Latin for “we’re capable of failing to meet the exceptionally low standards others set for us”

Mes Que Un Joke

[sage]

1 hour ago, RIMBAUD said:

How’s life by the Trent this morning. Any silver wood protests?

We just took the first wicket before lunch. Bowled quite well deserved 2 or 3.

Fortunately I have a splendid Hunters Pie and some nice cheese.

 

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

My little input regarding the academy involvement.

• When Mel took over, he started investing heavily in the academy, which he knew would take a number of years to bear fruit.
• Investment went into the first team in his 2nd season, which theoretically wouldn't impact the long term prospects of the academy.
• Involvement of fringe academy players was reduced under certain managers (Pearson, Rowett). I believe Mel has previously suggested he was misled during the interview process
• Academy products were involved a lot last season, but Buchanan and Sibley in particular should have been used a lot more than they were

Minutes given to academy graduates in the league

 

Bad recruitment

This could fall under the manager, recruitment or even Mel.

• 15/16, Pearce/Shackell - Signed both at the same time (4 and 3 year deals respectively), only for Shackell to play in the first season and Pearce to play in the second, with minimal involvement in the other seasons. Why didn't we sign just 1 of them, with Rawson in reserve?
• 15/16, Olsson - Warnock and Forsyth already at the club with Lowe on the fringes
• 15/16, Blackman/Camara - We already had Ince, Russell and Weimann, with Bennett on the fringes
• 16/17, Anya - We already had Ince, Russell, Weimann, Blackman and Camara on the wings. One of the most pointless signings of all time.
• 18/19, Malone/Cole - Forsyth and Lowe. We also had McDonald on the fringes.
• 18/19, Jozefzoon - With Wilson, Lawrence, Waghorn and Bennett already as options, we should have given minutes to LThomas, McAllister or JML
• 19/20, Hamer/Dowell/Paterson - all pointless loans

 

Excellent post. We'll never know how youth players introduced to the team between 2017-19 would have fared & therefore those who point at Rawson, Guy etc as League 2 players now miss the point. Players can develop & improve in different environments & are more likely to stay at a higher level if they have been exposed to that quality of football at an early age. Unfortunately too few of our youth prospects were & when compared with the bang average journeymen we brought in on high wages, you wonder exactly where the quality drop off was.

Therefore I agree to some extent with Mel's criticism of the lack of youth exposure to the first team - what I can't understand then is why he waited until August 2019 to appoint a manager with a proven track record of developing youth. Whilst I accept the Academy model needed some years to perfect, hiring managers like Rowett & Lampard who were solely fixated on achieving success made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Their recruitment not unsurprisingly was overt short-termism - transfers on which Mel himself signed off on directly or indirectly. It was a total mismatch of strategic plan & personnel and frankly ridiculous.

Going forward, the Academy model is probably the best chance of success given a) the closing of the cheap EU footballer loophole exploited so well by Brentford, Leeds & Norwich following Brexit, b) the financial buying power of relegated Prem clubs with parachute payments & c) the large amount of kids leaving bloated Premiership academies for game time. What I'm not comfortable with though is the en masse introduction of youth players simply because the club is in such a mess that it has no choice - that smacks of 2002-03 rather than a deliberate plan like Cocu's or Clough's integration of Hughes/Hendrick/O'Brien ten years ago.

Edited August 5, 2021 by LeedsCityRam

[cheron85]

3 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

We should have only ever considered managers who bought into the above and only recruited players who fit into the above mould and either replaced an outgoing or were a significant improvement on the current playing staff.

I do think too much leniency has been given to managers over the years - I think Cocu (more than any other manager) was screwed by having to deal with the tail end of a squad made up of 3/4 previous managers signings and/or losing those players in one fell swoop

Too many managers seem to have come in and said "I need a Left Back, but not the kind we currently have" and been allowed to go off and buy that player - With no one above them pushing to sell a player from the position before they could bring one in 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, Sidd10 said:

Hindsight is beautiful to say that's what we should have done those years, to stop the current situation.

But at the time of playoff pushes if we had a squad of 13 or 14 'experienced' players and the rest made up of Jamie Hanson's, Farrend Rawson's and Callum Guy's, the Manager and Mel would have been on the end of similar abuse to now. 

Again, you can't just chuck them in because they are young and cheap wages. The good ones all got minutes.

Will Hughes played 165 games for us by the time he was 22 cause he was good enough. 

Jeff Hedrick played 196 games for us by 23/24 because he was good enough.

 

 

 

 

Im not saying 13 or 14 experienced players. I'm saying 22 or 23, with these youngsters backups to them.

Hughes and Hendrick only got their chances because we had little depth at the time

Hughes made just 3 appearances in all competitions in 11/12.He played as a wide mid when our only options were Ward, BDavies and Bennett (Ward injured for the final Peterborough game). He impressed s much in those final 2 games that he earned himself a spot in the squad for 12/13, when his competition was just Bryson and Hendrick.

Hendrick made 4 apps (28 mins) in 10/11. Green, Savage and Bailey the CM options that season. Savage retired so a big gap was available for Hendrick to take.

[Rammy03]

1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Therefore I agree to some extent with Mel's criticism of the lack of youth exposure to the first team - what I can't understand though is why he waited until August 2019 to appoint a manager with a proven track record of developing youth. Whilst I accept the Academy model needed some years to perfect, hiring managers like Rowett & Lampard who were solely fixated on achieving success made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Their recruitment not unsurprisingly was overt short-termism - transfers on which Mel himself signed off on directly or indirectly. It was a total mismatch of strategic plan & personnel and frankly ridiculous.

I think that's slightly unfair on Lampard. He bought Bogle through and played him all season. It's all about having the right mix so that you can blood youth while being successful at the same time. In my opinion Lampard did that very well. People criticse him over the signings he made despite the fact that it had been happening years before he even got here. Its quite clear that the recruitment team and Mel Morris are to blame for that.

[Kernow]

2 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

We should have worked on a rough prinicple of two senior players for every positon with the third player being filled by someone from the academy. 

I think this point is largely based on hindsight, though. Hopefully we’ll all learn our lesson should it happen again, but if we hadn’t bought the players we did and never got promoted, then people would argue that side too.

It’s a good idea in principal, but we have had some awful luck with injuries. I’ll use a youth striker currently as an example, mostly because I can’t remember who it would’ve been at the time.

But the season where we looked nailed on for promotion and Chris Martin got injured and we slipped to 8th. Darren Bent came in for Martin, quite an expensive understudy I’m sure we’ll all agree, particularly when we didn’t go up. Imagine if we had failed to go up but instead put Jack Stretton in Martin’s place. The criticism would still be there, but for a completely different reason.

The reason we are in this mess isn’t because we bought players instead of using academy players. It’s because of the players we actually bought. Our recruitment strategy has been nothing short of pathetic and it puzzles me how through all the chopping and changing of managers and playing staff, nobody has ever looked at clearing the recruitment team and getting someone in who looks a little further than pissing money up the wall at any big name player or someone who is coming off the back of their first good half-season in their career.

[Day]

12 hours ago, Ramslad1992 said:

Lazy barsteward… do the minutes! ?

This is the first post I have seen since opening the thread, and the perfect one to say I'm sorry if you have messaged/mentioned me and I have ignored you, this morning has been chaos in all honesty, I'm not being lazy, haven't stopped since 8am.

I am now just finalising things by getting a couple of points fact checked to ensure that what I put out is completely accurate and not spend the day/evening correcting myself. 

Feel like I'm apologising a lot lately, it's just I want to you to know I'm not trying my best here, not looking to tease this out, get more views, likes, attention, nothing of the sort.

I'm being sent screenshots of abuse, tweets and posts asking to verify all morning across different platforms, I'm asking you to please stop, in fact please don't even react to this thread as it will only add further to my notifications I have to work through. Never had to deal with anything on this scale before and in all honesty, I'm struggling as I don't want to ignore any of you.

Thanks again to the many for understanding on the forum, love you all and the positive support from last night makes me proud of what we have all created, I just need a bit more time. ??

 

[ColonelBlimp]

16 minutes ago, Josh said:

You're telling me this isn't all nightmare?

You mean, maybe WE are all in the coma?

[i-Ram]

15 minutes ago, cosmic said:

"I can't wait to roam freely through Europe watching my beloved Derby County play in the Europa League. I assume we've kicked on since Wembley? Is David Bowie still touring, btw?"

The latter is down under.

[brady1993]

6 minutes ago, Sidd10 said:

Hindsight is beautiful to say that's what we should have done those years, to stop the current situation.

But at the time of playoff pushes if we had a squad of 13 or 14 'experienced' players and the rest made up of Jamie Hanson's, Farrend Rawson's and Callum Guy's, the Manager and Mel would have been on the end of similar abuse to now. 

Again, you can't just chuck them in because they are young and cheap wages. The good ones all got minutes.

Will Hughes played 165 games for us by the time he was 22 cause he was good enough. 

Jeff Hendrick played 196 games for us by 23/24 because he was good enough.

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing for only having 13 or 14 experience players and it's misleading to suggest as much. The truth is for far too long we ran with way way too many experienced players on the whole and in specific positions especially especially when the players we were signing were often approaching the twilight of their career. @Ghost of Cloughhas provided several specific examples where this has been the case and the point he's trying to make his if you have two experienced left backs on the book and an talented academy lad on the books maybe don't go out and buy another left back who makes no material difference to the squad's quality.

With Hughes you may have a point but a major major reason why he got game time was because of necissity and because of Clough chancing on him. You are kidding yourself if you think Hughes would have broken through in the likes of Rowett's season. On the other hand Hendrick is actually a pretty damn good example of the opposite of what you are trying to say. Hendrick didn't look close to ready in my opinion when he first broke through and I'd say it was a season or so before actually looked like a championship standard player. But that's the trick through playing he developed into a better player.

Should we go back to the Clough days where we just had to give them chances because of no other choice ? Ideally no but they'd likely develop faster. Ideally we have a core small squad of around 22 players comprised of signings and the more mature academy talent (think Knight and Buchanan) with academy talent as emergency cover in and around the first team.  

[Scott129]

13 minutes ago, CollyerDCFC said:

 

 

Thanks all.

I shall go grab a big handful of salt then.

Here's a good example of the sort of thing he likes to put out there...

What does this actually mean? It's just so vague!

It's like the people who share Dalai Lama quotes on LinkedIn - completely and utterly meaningless insight.

[Rammy03]

4 minutes ago, Kernow said:

The reason we are in this mess isn’t because we bought players instead of using academy players. It’s because of the players we actually bought. Our recruitment strategy has been nothing short of pathetic and it puzzles me how through all the chopping and changing of managers and playing staff, nobody has ever looked at clearing the recruitment team and getting someone in who looks a little further than pissing money up the wall at any big name player or someone who is coming off the back of their first good half-season in their career.

Nail on the head.

[Chester40]

David you big tease. That was the equivalent of being stood waiting for ever for your favourite band to come out... and the lead singer coming out and going 'check, check 1, 2, check 1,2...' hitting the drums a couple of times and then going off stage again. 

[ColonelBlimp]

8 minutes ago, David said:

This is the first post I have seen since opening the thread, and the perfect one to say I'm sorry if you have messaged/mentioned me and I have ignored you, this morning has been chaos in all honesty, I'm not being lazy, haven't stopped since 8am.

I am now just finalising things by getting a couple of points fact checked to ensure that what I put out is completely accurate and not spend the day/evening correcting myself. 

Feel like I'm apologising a lot lately, it's just I want to you to know I'm not trying my best here, not looking to tease this out, get more views, likes, attention, nothing of the sort.

I'm being sent screenshots of abuse, tweets and posts asking to verify all morning across different platforms, I'm asking you to please stop, in fact please don't even react to this thread as it will only add further to my notifications I have to work through. Never had to deal with anything on this scale before and in all honesty, I'm struggling as I don't want to ignore any of you.

Thanks again to the many for understanding on the forum, love you all and the positive support from last night makes me proud of what we have all created, I just need a bit more time. ??

 

Excuses excuses. Step up and stand out boy.

?

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Scott129 said:

Here's a good example of the sort of thing he likes to put out there...

What does this actually mean? It's just so vague!

It's like the people who share Dalai Lama quotes on LinkedIn - completely and utterly meaningless insight.

It means we need action. Why is that so difficult to understand? ?

There are two natural cut-offs for this tomorrow at midday to sign for Saturday and 31st August to sign at all. We need action as the first cut-off is fast approaching.

[angieram]

10 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Excellent post. We'll never know how youth players introduced to the team between 2017-19 would have fared & therefore those who point at Rawson, Guy etc as League 2 players now miss the point. Players can develop & improve in different environments & are more likely to stay at a higher level if they have been exposed to that quality of football at an early age. Unfortunately too few of our youth prospects were & when compared with the bang average journeymen we brought in on high wages, you wonder exactly where the quality drop off was.

Therefore I agree to some extent with Mel's criticism of the lack of youth exposure to the first team - what I can't understand then is why he waited until August 2019 to appoint a manager with a proven track record of developing youth. Whilst I accept the Academy model needed some years to perfect, hiring managers like Rowett & Lampard who were solely fixated on achieving success made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Their recruitment not unsurprisingly was overt short-termism - transfers on which Mel himself signed off on directly or indirectly. It was a total mismatch of strategic plan & personnel and frankly ridiculous.

Going forward, the Academy model is probably the best chance of success given a) the closing of the cheap EU footballer loophole exploited so well by Brentford, Leeds & Norwich following Brexit and b) the financial buying power of relegated Prem clubs with parachute payments. What I'm not comfortable with though is the en masse introduction of youth players simply because the club is in such a mess that it has no choice - that smacks of 2002-03 rather than a deliberate plan like Cocu's or Clough's integration of Hughes/Hendrick/O'Brien ten years ago.

I agree with much of what you have said here, which is why loans at a lower level aren't always the best indication of what a player is capable of. 

In defence of Lampard though, he was quite good at bringing through the youth, unfortunately not ours! ?