Derby County v Port Vale - The Matchday Thread

[Crewton]

2 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Yes you’re right - it was a lovely move and Kight’s best moment. LD hit it crisply and missed by a whisker. 

Knight was out of sorts yesterday I thought, but he wasn't the only one. Perhaps they're feeling the effects of additional fitness training? Just speculation on my part, but they must be doing extra work to get to where Warne requires them to be. 

[FlyBritishMidland]

Having slept on it we really should have taken our chances in the first half.  We did look threatening when we got around their penalty area but didn’t capitalise.  I think Port Vale’s experience with this ref last season helped and was part of their game plan.  They were clearly told to try and go over at every opportunity and the ref, being a bit rubbish, is likely to give you something.  And to get in his face.

I’m still not sure Collins catches the defender and if he did was slight and not a full on forearm smash.  I also think it’s a heat of the moment act of frustration not intending to hit the player.  But, knowing some of the strange decisions the ref has made, it was a stupid reaction.  If there’s a couple seconds, the players have separated then he does that, nothing happens.  Doing it while on top of the player looks worse and I can see why the ref has sent him off.  I don’t think we appeal as, as we’ve seen on here, opinion can be divided.  I don’t think the footage is clear cut enough to overturn a ban.

[Caerphilly Ram]

49 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

If he’d done as you say then the police should get involved. 
 

Except it wasn’t at all as you describe, he’s clearly hitting the ground and doesn’t make any contact with the player who conned the ref to get him sent off. 

I don’t see how the club could mitigate his actions, Collins does appear to be having a hissy fit and slapping the ground but in that moment he also appears to strike their player. Whether he does actually make contact or not isn’t properly clear from the replay I saw.
 

I had a little read of the FA rules (nothing in the EFL rules about red cards so assume FA rules apply across the leagues?) and the best we could hope is the club argue it down as reckless rather than violent behaviour which is a caution-able offence rather than a red. Or they argue it is a show of dissent or unsportsmanlike behaviour which again are both caution-able rather than sending off offences according to the rules….but I can’t see the argument stacking up, especially if they look back at the Cambridge game and see Collins aggression and squaring up to their player. Think we’ll lose Collins for 3 games and have to adapt unless there is some air tight evidence that shows he had no intent to harm their player.

FA rules for reference https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

[Archie]

56 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

If he’d done as you say then the police should get involved. 
 

Except it wasn’t at all as you describe, he’s clearly hitting the ground and doesn’t make any contact with the player who conned the ref to get him 

That's how I saw it. And that's how the ref saw it. And presumably if they won't appeal (which they won't), that's how the manager/club saw it. 

 

[Rampant]

That was fun yesterday. Two penalties conceded, a red card and a home defeat to the club who came up last season via the L2 playoffs. 

The performance of the ref and his assistants is the talk of the forum but my overall take is this.....

 

1. We didn't deserve to win the game and our performance should be of greater concern than that of the officials.

2. The key decisions - the two pens plus Collins' red - weren't awful decisions. Collins didn't aim for their player but he lashed out and if he's caught him then the ref is always likely to send him off.

3. Sibley was hauled down at the end but the ref gave it as a free kick to them rather than a penalty (or waving play on). As it happens, I'm pretty sure he blew before the corner had actually been taken so he got that incident doubly wrong.

4. Whatever the merits or otherwise are of having three CB's and playing with wingbacks, I'm already of the opinion that neither Barkhuizen or Mendez-Laing are suitable for the role. Festy or Byrne as RWB and Lowe or Buchanan as LWB yes, but I've spotted a problem with that.

NML seemed to lack his explosive pace yesterday and I think asking him to cover more distance is a likely cause. I like both Barks and NML but only as wide attacking players or possibly conventional wingers in a 4-4-2, not as wing backs.

5. We had a midfield three yesterday of Bird, Hourihane and Knight. That trio should be more than good enough to dominate most matches at L1 level. I felt yesterday that they were off it individually and as a trio. I also felt we didn't try to play enough football through them. They have quality, it is potentially our strong suit yet we play as though it isn't.

If we play with three in the middle I'd like to see Rooney given an opportunity to nail the DM role. He looks to be a fine prospect. Knight's energy plus whoever compliments the team best - or most in form - out of Bird, Hourihane, Smith, Thompson and Sibley can take the remaining place (Smith looked excellent in his most recent appearance). 

6. At this level we should have enough ability to play four at the back and use the third CB body elsewhere. If this means Odurah, Smith or Chester at RB then so be it. 

7. Yesterday was the first time I've watched a match from the North Stand since circa 1997 (a 3-1 win versus Everton). You boys and girls in the South Stand looked great doing the bounce after the goal.

8. Osula doesn't look equipped to play up front as a sole striker.

 

COYR

 

[Tamworthram]

59 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Cheeses Christ the linesman is right in line with that "penalty" and he gave it, Aarrrrhhhhhhhhhhhgggggggggg?

As many faults as VAR has (well, there’s nothing wrong with the general concept or technology, just the reviewers seem to measure every offside decision down to the last millimetre (as per the England v USA game) and judging by the time taken to reach a decision, must be sitting around with a cup of Horlicks whilst reviewing footage), it would have caused the ref to reverse his decision and book the PV player for diving. Well it would have if the ref had been competent.

[Ghost of Clough]

16 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I don’t see how the club could mitigate his actions, Collins does appear to be having a hissy fit and slapping the ground but in that moment he also appears to strike their player. Whether he does actually make contact or not isn’t properly clear from the replay I saw.
 

I had a little read of the FA rules (nothing in the EFL rules about red cards so assume FA rules apply across the leagues?) and the best we could hope is the club argue it down as reckless rather than violent behaviour which is a caution-able offence rather than a red. Or they argue it is a show of dissent or unsportsmanlike behaviour which again are both caution-able rather than sending off offences according to the rules….but I can’t see the argument stacking up, especially if they look back at the Cambridge game and see Collins aggression and squaring up to their player. Think we’ll lose Collins for 3 games and have to adapt unless there is some air tight evidence that shows he had no intent to harm their player.

FA rules for reference https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

It was definitely a yellow card offence. I remember a keeper a couple of years ago who got sent off from a 2nd yellow. He just conceded and when the ball bounced back out of the net he went to punch the ball... only to punch someone in the balls instead.

For a successful appeal, we would need to proceed the ref made an obvious error. Given the debate on here, it's unlikely to be proven an obvious mistake.

[Tamworthram]

10 minutes ago, Rampant said:

That was fun yesterday. Two penalties conceded, a red card and a home defeat to the club who came up last season via the L2 playoffs. 

The performance of the ref and his assistants is the talk of the forum but my overall take is this.....

 

1. We didn't deserve to win the game and our performance should be of greater concern than that of the officials.

2. The key decisions - the two pens plus Collins' red - weren't awful decisions. Collins didn't aim for their player but he lashed out and if he's caught him then the ref is always likely to send him off.

3. Sibley was hauled down at the end but the ref gave it as a free kick to them rather than a penalty (or waving play on). As it happens, I'm pretty sure he blew before the corner had actually been taken so he got that incident doubly wrong.

4. Whatever the merits or otherwise are of having three CB's and playing with wingbacks, I'm already of the opinion that neither Barkhuizen or Mendez-Laing are suitable for the role. Festy or Byrne as RWB and Lowe or Buchanan as LWB yes, but I've spotted a problem with that.

NML seemed to lack his explosive pace yesterday and I think asking him to cover more distance is a likely cause. I like both Barks and NML but only as wide attacking players or possibly conventional wingers in a 4-4-2, not as wing backs.

5. We had a midfield three yesterday of Bird, Hourihane and Knight. That trio should be more than good enough to dominate most matches at L1 level. I felt yesterday that they were off it individually and as a trio. I also felt we didn't try to play enough football through them. They have quality, it is potentially our strong suit yet we play as though it isn't.

If we play with three in the middle I'd like to see Rooney given an opportunity to nail the DM role. He looks to be a fine prospect. Knight's energy plus whoever compliments the team best - or most in form - out of Bird, Hourihane, Smith, Thompson and Sibley can take the remaining place (Smith looked excellent in his most recent appearance). 

6. At this level we should have enough ability to play four at the back and use the third CB body elsewhere. If this means Odurah, Smith or Chester at RB then so be it. 

7. Yesterday was the first time I've watched a match from the North Stand since circa 1997 (a 3-1 win versus Everton). You boys and girls in the South Stand looked great doing the bounce after the goal.

8. Osula doesn't look equipped to play up front as a sole striker.

 

COYR

 

The best post I’ve seen so far on this thread. Bravo.

[Jimbo Ram]

43 minutes ago, Rampant said:

That was fun yesterday. Two penalties conceded, a red card and a home defeat to the club who came up last season via the L2 playoffs. 

The performance of the ref and his assistants is the talk of the forum but my overall take is this.....

 

1. We didn't deserve to win the game and our performance should be of greater concern than that of the officials.

2. The key decisions - the two pens plus Collins' red - weren't awful decisions. Collins didn't aim for their player but he lashed out and if he's caught him then the ref is always likely to send him off.

3. Sibley was hauled down at the end but the ref gave it as a free kick to them rather than a penalty (or waving play on). As it happens, I'm pretty sure he blew before the corner had actually been taken so he got that incident doubly wrong.

4. Whatever the merits or otherwise are of having three CB's and playing with wingbacks, I'm already of the opinion that neither Barkhuizen or Mendez-Laing are suitable for the role. Festy or Byrne as RWB and Lowe or Buchanan as LWB yes, but I've spotted a problem with that.

NML seemed to lack his explosive pace yesterday and I think asking him to cover more distance is a likely cause. I like both Barks and NML but only as wide attacking players or possibly conventional wingers in a 4-4-2, not as wing backs.

5. We had a midfield three yesterday of Bird, Hourihane and Knight. That trio should be more than good enough to dominate most matches at L1 level. I felt yesterday that they were off it individually and as a trio. I also felt we didn't try to play enough football through them. They have quality, it is potentially our strong suit yet we play as though it isn't.

If we play with three in the middle I'd like to see Rooney given an opportunity to nail the DM role. He looks to be a fine prospect. Knight's energy plus whoever compliments the team best - or most in form - out of Bird, Hourihane, Smith, Thompson and Sibley can take the remaining place (Smith looked excellent in his most recent appearance). 

6. At this level we should have enough ability to play four at the back and use the third CB body elsewhere. If this means Odurah, Smith or Chester at RB then so be it. 

7. Yesterday was the first time I've watched a match from the North Stand since circa 1997 (a 3-1 win versus Everton). You boys and girls in the South Stand looked great doing the bounce after the goal.

8. Osula doesn't look equipped to play up front as a sole striker.

 

COYR

 

Agree with virtually all of that ?

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

The fact that a PV defender who was 5 yards away rushed to the ‘victim’s’ defence and shoved Collins backwards supports your view. Would he do that if JC were slapping the ground in frustration ?

If his manager has instructed the team to do everything possible to sway the referee, yes.

Like for instance, I dunno, diving to win a penalty?

[Blondest Goat]

9 hours ago, Ramifications said:

David Clowes must be wondering, what on earth have I gone and done. 

Only if he expected miracles after 3 games

[MaltRam]

Well, that was a thoroughly grim afternoon.

We've put together a squad to play keep ball, and we negated our strengths by playing hoofball and making it a scrap which we aren't equipped to win.

The ref was poor, but he got the big decisions right from what I saw. Haven't watched it back. 

[LazloW]

Some of the judgements being made on here are both hilarious and depressing at the same time.  

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Knight was out of sorts yesterday I thought, but he wasn't the only one. Perhaps they're feeling the effects of additional fitness training? Just speculation on my part, but they must be doing extra work to get to where Warne requires them to be. 

Maybe knighty just doesn’t like dad jokes 

[Rammy03]

 

[jimtastic56]

Paul Warne will be upset by the referee, like the rest of us. But this is the start of a 4 year project and other things will concern him more. I don’t think we have one midfield player that suits his style. He wants box to box midfielders that are good in the air, strong tacklers who stop the opposition playing . Come January we will find out how much he loves Bird.

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, Needlesh said:

Well, that was a thoroughly grim afternoon.

We've put together a squad to play keep ball, and we negated our strengths by playing hoofball and making it a scrap which we aren't equipped to win.

The ref was poor, but he got the big decisions right from what I saw. Haven't watched it back. 

Dont 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Unlucky Alf

[Eatonram]

Ive watched the sending off incident several times and also played many many games, some very physical and IMO there is just no way that what Collins did actually hurt the Vale player to elicit that reaction, and it was that reaction plus the other players rushing in that got him sent off.

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

Ive watched the sending off incident several times and also played many many games, some very physical and IMO there is just no way that what Collins did actually hurt the Vale player to elicit that reaction, and it was that reaction plus the other players rushing in that got him sent off.

Shouldn’t have been sent off 

https://fanbanter.co.uk/derbys-james-collins-controversially-sent-off-after-making-contact-with-port-vale-player/

[Comrade 86]

So sick of watching amateur hour officials getting conned by grown men play-acting. The men's game has become a cesspit of simulation and unless the powers that be are willing to bring in retrospective sanctions when matchday officials miss or ignore such cheating, so it will remain. Frankly, yesterday's officials are an embarrassment to their profession and are absolutely stealing a living.