Derby County v Port Vale - The Matchday Thread

[Rich3478]

4 hours ago, Rampant said:

That was fun yesterday. Two penalties conceded, a red card and a home defeat to the club who came up last season via the L2 playoffs. 

The performance of the ref and his assistants is the talk of the forum but my overall take is this.....

 

1. We didn't deserve to win the game and our performance should be of greater concern than that of the officials.

2. The key decisions - the two pens plus Collins' red - weren't awful decisions. Collins didn't aim for their player but he lashed out and if he's caught him then the ref is always likely to send him off.

3. Sibley was hauled down at the end but the ref gave it as a free kick to them rather than a penalty (or waving play on). As it happens, I'm pretty sure he blew before the corner had actually been taken so he got that incident doubly wrong.

4. Whatever the merits or otherwise are of having three CB's and playing with wingbacks, I'm already of the opinion that neither Barkhuizen or Mendez-Laing are suitable for the role. Festy or Byrne as RWB and Lowe or Buchanan as LWB yes, but I've spotted a problem with that.

NML seemed to lack his explosive pace yesterday and I think asking him to cover more distance is a likely cause. I like both Barks and NML but only as wide attacking players or possibly conventional wingers in a 4-4-2, not as wing backs.

5. We had a midfield three yesterday of Bird, Hourihane and Knight. That trio should be more than good enough to dominate most matches at L1 level. I felt yesterday that they were off it individually and as a trio. I also felt we didn't try to play enough football through them. They have quality, it is potentially our strong suit yet we play as though it isn't.

If we play with three in the middle I'd like to see Rooney given an opportunity to nail the DM role. He looks to be a fine prospect. Knight's energy plus whoever compliments the team best - or most in form - out of Bird, Hourihane, Smith, Thompson and Sibley can take the remaining place (Smith looked excellent in his most recent appearance). 

6. At this level we should have enough ability to play four at the back and use the third CB body elsewhere. If this means Odurah, Smith or Chester at RB then so be it. 

7. Yesterday was the first time I've watched a match from the North Stand since circa 1997 (a 3-1 win versus Everton). You boys and girls in the South Stand looked great doing the bounce after the goal.

8. Osula doesn't look equipped to play up front as a sole striker.

 

COYR

 

We look very much like a team with a lot of square pegs in round holes. 
 

I’m not convinced on five at the back either, if we insist on playing that I’m not sure where else barkhuizen or Mendez Laing can play for us.

think dobbin looks good as a striker in a two. Bird needs a few games out for me. He looks so off it physically lately. Smith, knight and hourihane should be the midfield next week.

[Ram-Alf]

8 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

So sick of watching amateur hour officials getting conned by grown men play-acting. The men's game has become a cesspit of simulation and unless the powers that be are willing to bring in retrospective sanctions when matchday officials miss or ignore such cheating, so it will remain. Frankly, yesterday's officials are an embarrassment to their profession and are absolutely stealing a living.

Gamesmanship/cheating has been here as long as the football a was made out of a pigs bladder, The Hunter Vs Lee incident has been mentioned on here a couple of times, All started when Lee tripped himself up when running alongside Hunter to win a penalty, Lee was very cleaver at this, We loved it but it was cheating ?

Dean Sturridge did the same when winning a penalty against Southampton under Jim Smith, If it's your team most will say..."so what it's in the game and they all do it" when it's against us we complain, It was a clear dive for their 1st pen, The linesman gave the penalty he was right in line as the video shows, Incompetent is what this shower were. 

It'll change when the people who run football FIFA instruct all FAs to review all games, Then retrospectively give a ban on the player for cheating, Then penalise the offending team 1 point...it will then stop.

But it aint going to happen is it? 

[Rammy03]

19 minutes ago, Rich3478 said:

We look very much like a team with a lot of square pegs in round holes. 
 

I’m not convinced on five at the back either, if we insist on playing that I’m not sure where else barkhuizen or Mendez Laing can play for us.

think dobbin looks good as a striker in a two. Bird needs a few games out for me. He looks so off it physically lately. Smith, knight and hourihane should be the midfield next week.

I think we will be better with a back 4. We don't really have the players for a back 5. Barkheuizen and Mendez Laing are natural wide players but they're no wingbacks

Edited October 9, 2022 by Rammy03

[Anag Ram]

17 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I think we will be better with a back 4. We don't really have the players for a back 5. Barkheuizen and Mendez Laing are natural wide players but they're no wingbacks

I think when everyone is fit a better balance would be 

                                      Wildsmith

 Chester.            Davies.            Cashin.          Forsyth 

                                      Rooney 

                      Smith.                Knight

                                 McGoldrick 

 

                    NML                      Collins

    

[Rich3478]

26 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I think we will be better with a back 4. We don't really have the players for a back 5. Barkheuizen and Mendez Laing are natural wide players but they're no wingbacks

It doesn’t make us look any safer at the back either.

 

Unrelated but think cashin should be vice captain. Looks a leader to me, drives the team forward when behind. Even from centre back. Would be very happy with him having the armband from Davies at the end of the season. Easily our best defender now.

[DavesaRam]

6 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

The fact that a PV defender who was 5 yards away rushed to the ‘victim’s’ defence and shoved Collins backwards supports your view. Would he do that if JC were slapping the ground in frustration ?

Yes, because a number of Port Vale players would struggle to find employment in any of the caring professions. And it became clearer and clearer the more they realised this ref would lt them get away with pretty much whatever they wanted.

 

[DavesaRam]

6 hours ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Having slept on it we really should have taken our chances in the first half.  We did look threatening when we got around their penalty area but didn’t capitalise.  I think Port Vale’s experience with this ref last season helped and was part of their game plan.  They were clearly told to try and go over at every opportunity and the ref, being a bit rubbish, is likely to give you something.  And to get in his face.

I’m still not sure Collins catches the defender and if he did was slight and not a full on forearm smash.  I also think it’s a heat of the moment act of frustration not intending to hit the player.  But, knowing some of the strange decisions the ref has made, it was a stupid reaction.  If there’s a couple seconds, the players have separated then he does that, nothing happens.  Doing it while on top of the player looks worse and I can see why the ref has sent him off.  I don’t think we appeal as, as we’ve seen on here, opinion can be divided.  I don’t think the footage is clear cut enough to overturn a ban.

It doesn't matter whether the footage is clear or not, the EFL "are not for turning"!

[jono]

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

Shouldn’t have been sent off 

https://fanbanter.co.uk/derbys-james-collins-controversially-sent-off-after-making-contact-with-port-vale-player/

The ref has to make a decision and for him it’s hard without replays. I’ve got that advantage, seen three clips and no way did he hit him and it wasn’t an overly aggressive slap on the ground either. The PV players grossly exaggerated the effects of what was just two players tangled together after close contact when competing for a ball and then by influencing the referee unfairly. Sorry lads, biased or not that is no way a red. You can blame the ref if you like but his only crime was being weak and being taken in by what some people call gamesmanship but i call cheating. LeVe the ref alone and let’s talk about the two PV players who are a stain on sportsmanship. 

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Rich3478 said:

It doesn’t make us look any safer at the back either.

 

Unrelated but think cashin should be vice captain. Looks a leader to me, drives the team forward when behind. Even from centre back. Would be very happy with him having the armband from Davies at the end of the season. Easily our best defender now.

He’s becoming a fabulous footballer but he’s virtually a schoolboy and needs to focus on his improvement - don’t burden him with leadership roles 

[CBX1985]

I'm a qualified referee and I'm usually supportive, but yesterdays was total disgrace.  I can get that big calls are hard.  I can accept mistakes.  I can even give dispensation for reffing in a lower league that we are used to.

We had offsides given that the linesman did not flag for and the referee was wrongly placed; penalties given after 10-15 seconds - he didn't know, and if you don't know you can't give it. 

But, rough with the smooth.  We'll get a ref like that one day.

[DavesaRam]

1 hour ago, CBX1985 said:

I'm a qualified referee and I'm usually supportive, but yesterdays was total disgrace.  I can get that big calls are hard.  I can accept mistakes.  I can even give dispensation for reffing in a lower league that we are used to.

We had offsides given that the linesman did not flag for and the referee was wrongly placed; penalties given after 10-15 seconds - he didn't know, and if you don't know you can't give it. 

But, rough with the smooth.  We'll get a ref like that one day.

We get a ref like that nearly every day. At least in the championship there was always the hope that we actually got a decent ref for at least one match in the season. Does such a ref actually exist on League One? I would certainly hope so.

On the upside, I get to keep my reputation for ranting at the refs!

Edited October 9, 2022 by DavesaRam

[jono]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

We get a ref like that nearly every day. At least in the championship there was always the hope that we actually got a decent ref for at least one match in the season. Does such a ref actually exist on League One? I would certainly hope so.

On the upside, I get to keep my reputation for ranting at the refs!

What is hugely frustrating is that many know they have dropped one and then compound it by trying to balance it out. Sibley “won” a free kick at the end but didn’t deserve it. Minimal contact, just players battling for a ball, but down he went to “buy” the free kick which the embarrassed ref gave because he knew on the balance of decisions we were in deficit. 
 

It won’t happen, but it saddens me that so many players and managers think free kicks can be “won” That isn’t sport in my world. I suppose I am an anachronism but I absolutely see it as an imperative to try and do the right thing as often as you possibly can. 

[i-Ram]

Anybody else think we might have won this if @archramhad been (rightly) allowed to keep her run going.  I knew we were going to lose this game at 8.03 on Wednesday. And most of you want to blame the referee. 

[Anag Ram]

It’s a conspiracy. David out! ?

[Rich3478]

5 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

He’s becoming a fabulous footballer but he’s virtually a schoolboy and needs to focus on his improvement - don’t burden him with leadership roles 

It’s not a burden to the right person. Bellingham is captaining Dortmund at 19 and still constantly improving. 

[europia]

Overall a bad day at PP for the Rams. A great start with Collins superbly executed goal on 5 minutes should have made Derby comfortable but the 2nd goal never came. Regarding the 1st penalty awarded; not a great decision but not uncommon up and down the divisions. The problem is the minimal contact rule which presumably was introduced to increase the number of penalties awarded. VAR sometimes corrects the mistakes of twitchy referees, but VAR is also fallible. So in L1, with a generally poor standard of officiating and no VAR, mistakes will be more prevalent. The 2nd penalty was a gift to PV and arguably so was Collins foolish act resulting in a red card. Vales winning goal then seemed inevitable. Wildsmith could have done better, but that might seem a bit harsh.

So the honeymoon period for Warne is already over. One positive from Saturday is that this performance gives an early indication of the real challenge facing PW and his coaching staff. Fans will be intrigued to see how the transition in playing styles is converted into winning games and accumulating points.  

[PistoldPete]

16 hours ago, jono said:

The ref has to make a decision and for him it’s hard without replays. I’ve got that advantage, seen three clips and no way did he hit him and it wasn’t an overly aggressive slap on the ground either. The PV players grossly exaggerated the effects of what was just two players tangled together after close contact when competing for a ball and then by influencing the referee unfairly. Sorry lads, biased or not that is no way a red. You can blame the ref if you like but his only crime was being weak and being taken in by what some people call gamesmanship but i call cheating. LeVe the ref alone and let’s talk about the two PV players who are a stain on sportsmanship. 

There is no way the ref could have seen what happened from where he was stood. He reacted to the player writhing on the ground clutching his face. Pure guesswork on his part.  The officials made so many errors I literally lost count. Even the second penalty, I think he booked the wrong player.  Free kicks , bookings, the sending off, offsides, throw ins so many errors. 

[DCFC27]

Having watched it a few times my impression is he tried to catch the player whilst disguising it as a slap to the floor. His are certainly takes an obscure direction mid swing. 

[DRBee]

16 hours ago, jono said:

The ref has to make a decision and for him it’s hard without replays. I’ve got that advantage, seen three clips and no way did he hit him and it wasn’t an overly aggressive slap on the ground either. The PV players grossly exaggerated the effects of what was just two players tangled together after close contact when competing for a ball and then by influencing the referee unfairly. Sorry lads, biased or not that is no way a red. You can blame the ref if you like but his only crime was being weak and being taken in by what some people call gamesmanship but i call cheating. LeVe the ref alone and let’s talk about the two PV players who are a stain on sportsmanship. 

Spot on!

[DRBee]

18 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Gamesmanship/cheating has been here as long as the football a was made out of a pigs bladder, The Hunter Vs Lee incident has been mentioned on here a couple of times, All started when Lee tripped himself up when running alongside Hunter to win a penalty, Lee was very cleaver at this, We loved it but it was cheating ?

Dean Sturridge did the same when winning a penalty against Southampton under Jim Smith, If it's your team most will say..."so what it's in the game and they all do it" when it's against us we complain, It was a clear dive for their 1st pen, The linesman gave the penalty he was right in line as the video shows, Incompetent is what this shower were. 

It'll change when the people who run football FIFA instruct all FAs to review all games, Then retrospectively give a ban on the player for cheating, Then penalise the offending team 1 point...it will then stop.

But it aint going to happen is it? 

In our current team Knight is quite good at dropping to the floor and getting a free kick.