EFL Verdict

[WestKentRam]

5 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

This has been my argument all along, we wouldnt have done some of our business if the EFL hadnt signed off the Amortisation policy.

We wouldnt have signed Bielik, Jozwiak and I imagine Rooney wouldnt have been here.

It's like being granted planning permission for an extension and then being hit with a punishment because the planners realise your house is now bigger than theirs and everyone elses.

We need to wake up and quick, the EFL are literally doing anything and everything to destroy our football club. This is a battle of egos between Parry and Morris and our club and the fans are collateral damage.

 

From the statement on the DCFC website of 17th Jan 2020 it sounds as though this is the case, although not 100% crystal clear, ie the club wouldn't have done certain business if they hadn't had the amortisation policy previously approved by the EFL. https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2020/01/club-statement-17th-january-2020

'Had the EFL not given the green light in writing in respect of both charges, the Club would have reacted accordingly. The Club cannot re-trace the steps of the actions it legitimately took in good faith as a result of EFL approval of both matters.'

Does 're-trace the steps of the actions it legitimately took in good faith' mean submission of accounts, or future spending undertaken?

This seems to be the crux of it. If it's just we chose that method after reviewing the accounts to make them fit FFP/P&S after the event then we are in trouble. If it was actually approved by the EFL and effectively we spent more because of this thinking the books would balance, then it would seem a valid case for appeal.

 

[RammingStone66]

Question, if the EFL did try to relegate us can we go to CAS?, a system that should be outside the EFLs grasp

[Rambalin]

Just listened to the radio box experts say the resubmitted accounts hinge on 12 million pounds worth of shares that were written off when Mel took over and counted has income. 

If they allow that and there is no particular reason why they shouldn't then we easily comply. If not then it maybe tight either wa.... being as this is the EFL then they will make up a rule and backdate it. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Rambalin

[Dimmu]

So nothing new, still just a rollercoaster.

[rustylee]

We should merge with Wycombe. Derby Wanderers playing in the championship next season everyone happy.

[angieram]

2 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

But does it though? The accounts were signed off. There was no problem. If there was, I am sure there are many of things the club wouldn't have done. You cannot say it's fine and then a year later say actually no it's not. As much as I question the way the club has been run, this is EFL incompetence.

Exactly. If the EFL had questioned the method in the first season we did it, we would have resubmitted then. At worst it would have been a one season blip and an earlier change to slightly more prudent trading than happened.

I am incredulous that the EFL has not been questioned and highlighted about this by the so-called independent journalists who report on these matters. They just seem content to jump on the EFL anti-Derby bandwagon. Puppets!

 

[AutoWindscreens]

There's still a good possibility that the EFL don't appeal.

They got the judgment yesterday. Presumably they argued for a points deduction, and that is why they had already developed the option of interchangeable fixture lists.

They have the option of an appeal and right now they are thinking of it. If you don't get what you want from a judgment, your first public statement is that you are considering the judgment and considering an appeal. No point in committing yourself either way.

But it doesn't mean that they will appeal, because that will depend on deciding there is a good chance of showing that the DC was too lenient, or got something wrong. When you're talking about punishments, the DC will have a reasonably wide range of possible responses within which the Appeal Panel could not say they were wrong. It may well be that their advice will be that the DC could not really be said to have got it wrong, even if they disagree with it. 

The appeal provisions say: "the Appeal ... shall be limited to a consideration of whether the decision being appealed was in error and the burden of establishing the decision was in error shall rest with the appellant; and ... in the case of appeal against sanction, the grounds are that the original sanction was too severe or too lenient having regard to all the circumstances."

So I actually doubt that in the end the EFL will appeal.

Wishful thinking maybe!

[duncanjwitham]

2 minutes ago, Rambalin said:

Just listened to the radio box experts say the resubmitted accounts hinge on 12 million pounds worth of shares that were written off when Mel took over and counted has income. 

If they allow that and there is no particular reason why they shouldn't then we easily comply. If not then it maybe tight either wa.... being as this is the EFL then they will make up a rule and backdate it. 

"Tight" is kind of okay though.  It's not pass/fail, it's a sliding scale of points deductions depending on how much you overspend.  If we only overspend by a few million, it's a relatively small deduction (1 point per £1m overspend) - not ideal, but not instant relegation material.

[StarterForTen]

I think we might be giving too much weight to the 'interchangeable fixtures' statement. Given the timing of the announcement of the punishment and the release of fixtures so close to it, the EFL are just covering the bases.

There is an appeal period built in to the decision and, to take advantage of that they either had to plan for a relegation contingency or hold back the entire fixture release for both the Championship and League One.

Just because they have -sensibly - covered the bases does not mean they intend to appeal.

[Kennington Ram]

When you run a sports league and you have to release interchangeable fixtures because you mangled the interpretation and enforcement of your own rules, surely you have to consider whether you're the problem...

That said really wish Mel and Co had at some stage decided not to take the piss. De-escalating it just a few years back would surely have just avoided this.

[StarterForTen]

3 minutes ago, AutoWindscreens said:

There's still a good possibility that the EFL don't appeal.

They got the judgment yesterday. Presumably they argued for a points deduction, and that is why they had already developed the option of interchangeable fixture lists.

They have the option of an appeal and right now they are thinking of it. If you don't get what you want from a judgment, your first public statement is that you are considering the judgment and considering an appeal. No point in committing yourself either way.

But it doesn't mean that they will appeal, because that will depend on deciding there is a good chance of showing that the DC was too lenient, or got something wrong. When you're talking about punishments, the DC will have a reasonably wide range of possible responses within which the Appeal Panel could not say they were wrong. It may well be that their advice will be that the DC could not really be said to have got it wrong, even if they disagree with it. 

The appeal provisions say: "the Appeal ... shall be limited to a consideration of whether the decision being appealed was in error and the burden of establishing the decision was in error shall rest with the appellant; and ... in the case of appeal against sanction, the grounds are that the original sanction was too severe or too lenient having regard to all the circumstances."

So I actually doubt that in the end the EFL will appeal.

Wishful thinking maybe!

You beat me to it!

[ramsbottom]

What an absolute schizer show!!!

I know Mel has always had the club's best interests at heart, but he really has funked it up.

[CornwallRam]

I believed that the timing had pushed any likely points deduction into the forthcoming season. It now appears that relegation is still a possibility. Surely though, it's at such a late stage, that our relegation would mean chaos for Wycombe, the TV companies, printed material, sponsors etc. If the EFL do appeal, then surely there can't be time for it to be heard and a punishment committee to deliver another verdict? It's just not feasible. 

On the other hand, if they somehow manage to relegate us, we'd still have a possible points deduction for failing FFP with our restated accounts. We could actually struggle to avoid relegation from League 1. 

It's going to make a takeover almost impossible to conclude. 

[JfR]

Not a statement, but certainly a "statement"

[RadioactiveWaste]

One thing that strikes me is,

The EFL don't really seem to understand what they "won".

The wins for them are:

Resubmitted accounts.

No one can attempt this in future. Any future attempt would be done in the knowledge it is not a permitted methodology.

The key part of all this is the expectation that our resubmitted accounts would show excess losses for P&S (indeed, why would we have done the nifty accounting if that wasn't the case?)

So the EFL not being happy about us not being docked points for the accounting method seems a bit besides the point - except they really really really wanted to relegate Us. They told everyone (off the record, not itk, guess on my part) that we were going to be. They staked a lot of credibility on this.

I have some confidence the appeal will say "you won, get over it, charge Derby based on P&S in line with everyone else"

[NottsRammy]

My take on this.

Its clear as day that Mel has cooked the books esp with the stadium sale back to himself , but legally he has done nothing wrong bar be very smart and found a way round everything .We all know it , he knows it and the EFL know it but certain people with influence are pushing the EFL buttons and most probably middlesborough area is where its all coming from .

If we could take this to a high court outside of football im pretty sure Mel would win as how can they punish us for what they passed off in the first place its just totally bizarre .

One thing has crossed my minds the EFL are getting away with this now , its no doubt Derby have been clever in their accounting but we have done nothing wrong legally speaking and the EFL are behaving now like pathetic schoolboys , rather than look at there own issues in this .

Instead of us all moaning on here why isnt there an organised protest by Derby fans outside EFL headquarters with certain banners like " YOU PASSED OUR ACCOUNTING METHOD " etc etc .Get the drift, they are getting away with it because its not out in the open how they are at fault in all of this . Although Mel is not clear of blame if he hadnt tried to be to stupidly clever we wouldnt be in this mess . 

[rammieib]

35 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said:

What a mess to get in. The club has only its self to blame.

I really am fed up with all this. 

Sorry - for what? Using an amortisation process the EFL and the auditors agreed to? That's harsh.

[rammieib]

Could we have a scenario where both Derby County and the EFL both appeal the decision?

[Sparkle]

3 hours ago, JfR said:

I think there would be three 3-year periods that need revising - the three years up to and including each newly revised set of accounts - and an additional two 3-year periods to be submitted with the club now knowing how the 2019 and 2020 accounts need to be submitted.

Would that ultimately mean 5 years worth of accounts needing changing ( obviously only 3 for this purpose) 

[JfR]

1 minute ago, Sparkle said:

Would that ultimately mean 5 years worth of accounts needing changing ( obviously only 3 for this purpose) 

It depends on how the 2019 and 2020 accounts have been prepared, but if they were preparing them with the old method, then yes