Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, Rampage said:

Surely the takeover groups must realise that we may lose key players at Xmas if they do not buy us soon.

Didn’t the admins say they were aiming for a sale in December? Or latest before the Jan window closes ? Think it’s too far off personally - the longer it goes on the more risk of something bad happening 

[atherstoneram]

20 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Didn’t the admins say they were aiming for a sale in December? Or latest before the Jan window closes ? Think it’s too far off personally - the longer it goes on the more risk of something bad happening 

The administrators have never had to deal with HMRC when clubs went into administration before. The government changed the rules so that HMRC had a bigger say and not get the dregs from what was left. Some have speculated the HMRC will accept 25P per £ owed,if they were prepared to accept that there would have been no need for the government to change the rules. They may have told the administrators what they would accept and by what date or a winding up order will be issued. The players would move onto other clubs so PAYE and NI would still be paid. Yes i know 0% of nothing is nothing but it would send a very clear reminder to other clubs that things have changed. 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

The more I hear from the administrators the more I fear all isn't as it seems and all isn't going to be as rosey as they are trying to suggest.

I overhead someone at the gym, a father of an ex Derby player saying Derby are in a much bigger mess than the administrators are letting on.

I really hope he is wrong and I am wrong.

[CBRammette]

22 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The more I hear from the administrators the more I fear all isn't as it seems and all isn't going to be as rosey as they are trying to suggest.

I overhead someone at the gym, a father of an ex Derby player saying Derby are in a much bigger mess than the administrators are letting on.

I really hope he is wrong and I am wrong.

Yes I hope you are too but I feel very edgy.

[GboroRam]

I think we can't read too much into what the administrators say. They won't jeopardise a sale by telling the warts-and-all story, certainly not to the paying public. 

[Crewton]

The reality is that HMRC playing hardball with us won't make a blind bit of difference to other clubs in distress. It'll simply ensure that, if they stick to their guns consistently in every case, more clubs will be liquidated. As a blanket policy, it's the equivalent of shooting deserters "to encourage others" - it won't change the fundamental problems of football below the PL. 

[Tamworthram]

42 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The more I hear from the administrators the more I fear all isn't as it seems and all isn't going to be as rosey as they are trying to suggest.

I overhead someone at the gym, a father of an ex Derby player saying Derby are in a much bigger mess than the administrators are letting on.

I really hope he is wrong and I am wrong.

I hope he was wrong too and not meaning to shoot the messenger but, why would the father of an ex player know enough about the financial situation to question what the administrator is saying publicly? I doubt even the current players know a great deal more than most.

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

The administrators have never had to deal with HMRC when clubs went into administration before. The government changed the rules so that HMRC had a bigger say and not get the dregs from what was left. Some have speculated the HMRC will accept 25P per £ owed,if they were prepared to accept that there would have been no need for the government to change the rules. They may have told the administrators what they would accept and by what date or a winding up order will be issued. The players would move onto other clubs so PAYE and NI would still be paid. Yes i know 0% of nothing is nothing but it would send a very clear reminder to other clubs that things have changed. 

I’d hope the admins will have a pretty good idea how HMRC approach these scenarios, even though the new rules produce a different result. 
 

[angieram]

38 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The reality is that HMRC playing hardball with us won't make a blind bit of difference to other clubs in distress. It'll simply ensure that, if they stick to their guns consistently in every case, more clubs will be liquidated. As a blanket policy, it's the equivalent of shooting deserters "to encourage others" - it won't change the fundamental problems of football below the PL. 

I hope you mean "to discourage others"! ?

[PistoldPete]

7 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

The administrators have never had to deal with HMRC when clubs went into administration before. The government changed the rules so that HMRC had a bigger say and not get the dregs from what was left. Some have speculated the HMRC will accept 25P per £ owed,if they were prepared to accept that there would have been no need for the government to change the rules. They may have told the administrators what they would accept and by what date or a winding up order will be issued. The players would move onto other clubs so PAYE and NI would still be paid. Yes i know 0% of nothing is nothing but it would send a very clear reminder to other clubs that things have changed. 

The difference is that say if Top Shop or Debenhams go bust, it's because fewer people are visiting their stores. Derby still have a loyal fan base, so cutting off that revenue makes no sense to HMRC. 

Players moving on is all very well, (although some will become free agents or drop in salary at best) but there will be reduction in football revenues to the tune of around £30 million if Derby went bust, and replacing Derby with Chesterfield or whoever ain't going to replace that.  HMRC would lose out in perpetuity. What is 130 years of existence times £30 million? About £4 billion. Take 40% of that and that is £1.6 billion..  that is how much HMRC will lose if Derby go into liquidation.  It would be pigheaded, self righteous and foolish beyond imagination for HMRC to do that. 

[atherstoneram]

23 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I’d hope the admins will have a pretty good idea how HMRC approach these scenarios, even though the new rules produce a different result. 
 

You would think so but this could be seen as a test case and the HMRC may have set a level at what they will accept especially with the admins saying they are in discussion with Several interested parties, a take it or leave it option.

[Crewton]

16 minutes ago, angieram said:

I hope you mean "to discourage others"! ?

It means pretty much the same thing - do better, or else! 

[BramcoteRam84]

A few days of quiet and the void is immediately filled by negative speculation. This was never going to be straightforward. Everyone knows the club is in a mess, but rather than speculate on the small positives that wages have been paid for this month, they’re looking for extra funding to prevent further cuts etc and the fact there were interested parties at the game on Sunday we focus on the negative that we’ve not heard any news for a few days therefore it could be doomsday because we’re 2 weeks into administration and the club hasn’t been sold yet.

We all agree the longer this drags on the worse our situation could be but 2 weeks in is not the time to panic, if we’re still here in December and there is no sign of anything being sorted then it will look grim

Edited October 5, 2021 by BramcoteRam84

[atherstoneram]

47 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The reality is that HMRC playing hardball with us won't make a blind bit of difference to other clubs in distress. It'll simply ensure that, if they stick to their guns consistently in every case, more clubs will be liquidated. As a blanket policy, it's the equivalent of shooting deserters "to encourage others" - it won't change the fundamental problems of football below the PL. 

 I can't see the HMRC being bothered if they are seen to be playing hardball. I also doubt the HMRC see problems of football below the PL is anything to do with them to get involved with as to what the PL and EFL rules are and is an issue which needs to be sorted out within the game. That is why the government wouldn't give any money to help the clubs out during Covid  and the EFL finished up going to a Third party to arrange funds and no i am not going to get into an argument as to whether we should have got it or not.

[atherstoneram]

31 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

The difference is that say if Top Shop or Debenhams go bust, it's because fewer people are visiting their stores. Derby still have a loyal fan base, so cutting off that revenue makes no sense to HMRC. 

Players moving on is all very well, (although some will become free agents or drop in salary at best) but there will be reduction in football revenues to the tune of around £30 million if Derby went bust, and replacing Derby with Chesterfield or whoever ain't going to replace that.  HMRC would lose out in perpetuity. What is 130 years of existence times £30 million? About £4 billion. Take 40% of that and that is £1.6 billion..  that is how much HMRC will lose if Derby go into liquidation.  It would be pigheaded, self righteous and foolish beyond imagination for HMRC to do that. 

I agree with you (never thought i would say that ?),there is no arguing about the clubs loyal fan base but you have to ask yourself why,if they are concerned about clubs going into liquidation did they change the rules for HMRC to become preferred creditors.

[RadioactiveWaste]

19 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

I agree with you (never thought i would say that ?),there is no arguing about the clubs loyal fan base but you have to ask yourself why,if they are concerned about clubs going into liquidation did they change the rules for HMRC to become preferred creditors.

Politics

[Indy]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I hope you mean "to discourage others"! ?

It’s a quote from Voltaire about how the British court-martialled and executed an Admiral for failing to pursue the French. They executed him “to encourage the others” (a big dollop of sarcasm).

[PistoldPete]

35 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

I agree with you (never thought i would say that ?),there is no arguing about the clubs loyal fan base but you have to ask yourself why,if they are concerned about clubs going into liquidation did they change the rules for HMRC to become preferred creditors.

That’s a change across the board isn’t it, not specific to football clubs.

[atherstoneram]

20 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

That’s a change across the board isn’t it, not specific to football clubs.

As i understand it.

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

 I can't see the HMRC being bothered if they are seen to be playing hardball. I also doubt the HMRC see problems of football below the PL is anything to do with them to get involved with as to what the PL and EFL rules are and is an issue which needs to be sorted out within the game. That is why the government wouldn't give any money to help the clubs out during Covid  and the EFL finished up going to a Third party to arrange funds and no i am not going to get into an argument as to whether we should have got it or not.

Well, it won't sit well with the "leveling up" agenda when there are less than 10 league clubs left north of the Trent. HMRC going out of their way to kill any significant businesses in the wake of the pandemic will soon become political.

Well find out soon enough.