PistoldPete

It shouldn’t be a controversial statement .. in fact it’s one that even Alpha acknowledges. The Hamas attack was a crime of such depravity ( and with attackers glorying in the fact that they were killing Jews) that I am in doubt that it crosses the legal threshold of genocide.. of deliberate intent of killing members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity. Israels response may have caused a greater loss of life, many of them civilians . But as I have said many times it is not genocide.. the legal experts state the difficulty in showing intent to kill people just because they are Palestinians. so on the one hand you get people like Gary Lineker staying completely silent on the Hamas atrocity , but at the same time telling us all to watch a video of some academic saying Israel’s response is genocide. I cannot see that the attitude of people like Lineker is anything but prejudiced in the extreme.

It is true that there a lot of people who do not want to recognise that October 7 took place. When the video was shown by a Jewish businessman the showing had to be done secretly to avoid protests . Posters of the missing hostages are regularly posted in London and torn down within hours by protesters. There are a very large number of people who do not want to recognise Jews as the victims.

The big problem is that you are saying the actions of Israel are comparable to Hamas. They are not . Nowhere near. If you cannot see that then yes you must be biased beyond belief.

In the case of WW2 there were various reasons for Allied actions. 1) A genuinely expansionist enemy that was attacking territories in the Baltics, all over Europe and Russia. 2) An evil ideology of eugenics that mercifully was a phase that passed along with Hitler. 3) Albeit with hindsight, a war that ultimately brought peace across Western Europe for the last 80 years and hopefully forever. But despite those justifications, if Allied forces had rounded up 1,400 German civilians and executed them in cold blood that would be murder, genocide even given all that.

I referred to Nazi Germans specifically to acknowledge the fact that we were at war with the Nazis, not with the Germans as a people. The horrors of the war are that innocent civilians ( French as well as Germans) were killed in large numbers.

Nazi Germans were killers, murderers, genocidal all of those things. They killed millions of Jews, gays, disabled people and anyone else who got in their way. Appeasement with Hitler was no use, only when Hitler was defeated could a process of appeasement and reconciliation begin. That process has led to peace in Western Europe for the last 80 years and probably forever. Before that West European countries had been warring for centuries. Quite a change and none of that would have been possible if Hitler hadn’t been defeated.

I didn’t say that. I said I didn’t see it as a tit for tat retaliation ie you killed x of our civilians so we will kill y of yours as retaliation. The stated aim is to take Hamas out of the equation so that there is no recurrence. Whether that will work as I say I don’t know, but that’s the objective as I see it and how Israel has stated it.

Well instead of tit for tat scaling up (which incidentally I don’t see Israel’s response as that anyway) we go down a tit for tat scaling down .. the hostage/ prisoner exchange is a good start. The big step is Israel ( without Netanyahu) recognising Palestine and vice versa. The devil I think is in the detail which is why I think previous attempts at a two State solution have failed.

Interesting that Warne brought JJ on ahead of Waghorn. And of course it paid dividends straightaway. All our ageing strikers have played a part so far but I’ve always thought we needed some fresh legs. Hopefully JJ can stay fit and play a big part and if so maybe extend his loan after Jan.

Well as I say I have relatives who fought in the wars and I know full well they didn’t want to talk about it. The traumas of what they saw and yes what they did stayed with them for the rest of their lives. I know that it preyed on their consciences . War is horrible and nobody wants it. But calling our armed forces murderers is really too much.

I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to that. I would like to see some meaningful discussions right now about what the end game is. Calls for a ceasefire are pointless without that.

I actually think that Israel’s attacks are less reckless than say the Allies on Dresden. But it’s different times now we have computers to help teach targets. I don’t regard either as murder but probably Dresden was a reckless error by Churchill. in answer to another question what is proportionate can only be decided in context of the end game. Hiroshima and Nagasaki unimaginably horrific though they were ended World war 2 which had cost 55 million lives. If the ultimate aim is ever lasting peace in the Middle East who knows what is proportionate.

Good away win , good use of subs how good does it get. Pompy may have won but we’re still coming for them.

So were the Allied forces all murderers? Lots of civilians killed in the World Wars, millions I think. Pretty offensive to bandy around words like that plenty of us have relatives who fought in the wars.

So I could call you a murderer or paedo and that would be ok? I mean who cares about the legal minutiae that you might not actually be a murderer why quibble about such minor legal technicalities?

So it isn’t legally genocide ( which is what I have been saying all along, stop using inflammatory language) but that won’t stop some social scientists calling it that anyway? It is horrific loss of life whichever way you look at it.

LeedsRam you show knowledge and balance. I think you have landed on the wrong thread.

Or the owner was given a suspended sentence after he had been shot dead. Makes a change from their usual spelling mistakes.

To be fair it’s a long way from Inverurie. I will be there and applauding the legend.

Might be worth enquiring about non fungible assets.

I do admire your flange. I will look out for it tomorrow, hope it is flapping in the wind.

Alpha we all want a peaceful solution and I think a two state solution where Palestinians can live freely is exactly what we both want. I have my own perspective which to be honest is too personal to share on a public forum. Despite your criticism of America they have a vital role to play in brokering a peaceful solution. Netanyahu has to go and of course so have Hamas. But I sincerely do not believe that such a rabid criticism of Israel is the way to bring about that peace. Or make life for Jews here in the Uk at all bearable.

To be honest it’s amazing he’s still alive but the Pogues are great so sorry to hear.

So you think you are even handed in your criticism? So on October 7 did you start a thread about the worst anti semitic atrocity since the Holocaust. No? Strange that.

Well you just had to double down didn't you? So Braverman made some inflammatory comment calling the marches "hate marches". She was wrong to do that, although there were certainly some hateful people on those marches. So that activates right wing mobs? Well maybe but I don't think Robinson and his mob need much excuse . So how about inflammatory posts like yours? Multiplied millions of times over on social media? Don't you think that fuels far left and anti semitic mobs? It certainly does, and is right now , not just on Armistice Day but every frigging day since October 7. Rachel Riley gets vile abuse all of the time. She knows what anti semitism is, she gets first hand experience of it all the time. Nice of you to show understanding for her about that . You plainly don't understand anti semitism. You don't recognise it, but it's the same as any other racism. We had someone else on this forum, another serial offender criticising another poster who was having a go at Jordan Ibe over his mental health issues. Stupid to have a go at Ibe for that not his fault. But the inference was made that criticising Ibe and dele Alli might be because that person was racist. If you criticise only black people all the time, you might get that impression.. same if you spend all your time criticising Israel, ignoring far worse things done by other countries. That is what Rachel Riley is saying , and she is right. The only unarguable crimes have been committed by Hamas, who have deliberately targeted civilians. .to put Israel's response on a par with that is wrong both morally and factually.