El DerbyCo

[kevinhectoring]

On 12/04/2021 at 12:11, Ghost of Clough said:

What would you have liked him to say instead?

"The eventual goal is to scrape PL survival every year like Newcastle and Palace"
"The eventual goal is to fluke a promotion"
"The eventual goal is to reach the playoffs"
The eventual goal is to stay in the Championship"

Exactly

And he’ll have been told the fans were up in arms about the comms surrounding the Derventio deal so good on him for getting in front of the media. (Though not much of a chore perhaps, he doesn’t seem to be a shrinking violet)

Anyway, more of this dreamy stuff please it cheers us up. Well me anyway

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Of course. But you'll find the consistency in quality is greater with higher spend. Birmingham a classic example of low spend but the occasional wonderkid - Bellingham, Gray and Redmond just to name a few. But, The I think the sale of Bellingham helped them breakeven on their return over the past 20 years - hence the cutting back their spend.

That consistency seems apparent when looking back at the new scholar intakes:

2020: Roberts, Randle, Brailsford, Rutt, Christie, Ibrahim, Bokovic, Williams, Kelly
2019: Solomon, Jinkinson, Bardell, Grewal-Pollard, Matthews, Rogers, Aghatise, Perez de Gracia, SThompson, Nto, Cybulski, 
2018: Foster, Halwax, Cashin, Ebosele, McDonald, Archie, Charles, Sibley, LThompson, Wilson, Stretton
2017: French, JBrown, Minkley, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Dixon, Whittaker
2016: Fryatt, Carter-Thompson, CThomas, Mbuti, Rashid, Mills, Bogle, Thorne, Haywood, Hitchman, Wise, Jibosu, JML, Cresswell, Davie
2015: Yates, Goode, Bateman, Magno, Davidson-Miller, Edwards
2014: Barnes, EWassall, Cover, Stabana, MacDonald, Babos, JBird, Carvell, Gordon, Mellors
2013: Behrens, Tuite, Lowe, Rigby, Moulton, Dryden, Adams, TBennett, Clennett, Guy, Vernam, Zanzala
2012: Rawson, Hanson, KThomas, Spiriak, Nash, Revan, Carrigy, Johnson, Capitani
2011: Etheridge, AWassall, Lelan, Sharpe, Berry, Dales, Hayes, Wixted, Dawkins

Would be interesting to see how many of those have made it in the pro game. Obviously you could only really count the pre-2018’s as it’s a lot to expect the more recent graduates to have progressed in the game, some drop to non-league and come back.

Aside from those still at the club, The names that stand out as being at league clubs for me are:

Bogle, Lowe, Guy, Vernam, Hanson, Zanzala, Rawson, Thomas, Whittaker 

Which is probably about right given the ratios of academy players that make it vs those that don’t. 

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

I think the academy has been a large part of the reason that we've failed to get promoted and has, consequently, cost us far more than it has contributed.

You correctly point out that the spending is exempt from FFP, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. £5m from a £30m turnover is an enormous amount. It is unthinkable that any owner putting that in wouldn't want to see the first team used to develop the academy players. That means that players are selected for the first team for development purposes, rather than because they are ready. That, in turn, means that our first team always has sub-standard players in it. The margin between success and failure is small at this level, so a couple of sub standard players is enough to turn automatics to play-offs, play-offs to md table or mid table into a relegation battle. Mel has also stated that he has hesitated to bring in experienced players in order not to block the route for the academy players - so the academy has had a tangible influence on recruitment.

Then as soon as a player becomes a real asset, the cost of the academy is so great that we have to sell them just to fund the academy. OK, it also helps with FFP, but FFP is only such an issue because we have been hanging around in this division for such a long time. At our level, a Cat 1 academy is an albatross around our necks. It is the tail that wags the dog. The equation becomes different for a Premier League club with a £150m turnover, £5m on an academy is sensible, but for us it is, in my opinion, the primary reason that Mel's term as owner is ending in ignominy. 

Firstly, let's start off by looking at the minutes of academy graduate involvement in the league since Mel's takeover in 2014 (excluding Hughes and Hendrick):

14/15 - Hanson (160), KThomas (65), Bennett (36)
15/16 - Hanson (892)
16/17 - Lowe (716), Hanson (251), Bennett (23)
17/18 - Hanson (50), Bennett (41), Thomas (6)
18/19 - Bogle (3485), Bennett (1108), Lowe (270), Bird (110), JML (7)
19/20 - Bogle (2902), Lowe (2281), Bird (1910), Knight (1808), Sibley (739), Buchanan (276), Whittaker (269), Bennett (178), JBrown (6), Trialist (6)
20/21 - Knight (3302), Buchanan (2421), Bird (1838), Sibley (953), Whittaker (207), McDonald (199), Watson (133), Trialist (57), Stretton (29), Cresswell (8), Ebosele (6), Gordon (1), JML (1)

Up until 2018, academy graduates were limited to cup games or being their in case of emergency. Lowe was the only one to get a run of games and impressed in them, only to get dropped back to to 4th choice when, Forsyth, Olsson, Warnock or whoever else was flavour of the week at LB. Lowe looked ready for that step up but his progress was blocked because of the sheer number of high earning players in front of him - this is what Mel wanted to prevent in the future as it stalled Lowe's progress for 2/3 years.

In the 18/19 season, Frank wanted to loan Bogle out for experience. Because we chose not to give him the odd appearance in the league previously no-one wanted him. However, it's hard to argue against Bogle and Bennett deserving their game-time under Frank.

Due to heavily focusing on the first team, we could no longer afford to keep such a large squad under P&S, hence a cut back in 19/20. Let's not forget we were under and embargo? Bogle deservedly retained his place as 1st choice RB.
Lowe started the season as 2nd choice LB due to Fozzy's long term injury, and only came into the side following Bogle's injury. By the end of the season, many felt he was our best LB.
Bird came in to the side half way through the season due to an injury crisis at CM (Bielik, Huddlesteone, Shinnie, Evans all out?). He was some people's player of the season despite only playing in half the games.
Sibley was head and shoulders above U23 and looked ready for Championship football, as shown by his 5 goals in 11 games at the end of the season. You could also argue Knight came into the side too soon, but again, he proved he was ready with consistent performances and a respectable 6 goals in 31 games.
Buchanan again only came in due to an injury crisis.
Others invovled due to not being able to add any more depth without failing P&S

On to this season, as you know we are still feeling the repercussions of our heavy spending early on in Mel's reign. Under another embargo, if i recall correctly?
Bird, Knight and Sibley rightfully deserved to be included in the squad base on their performances in 19/20.
Buchanan started off as Fozzy's backup due to selling Lowe and loaning out Malone to stay within financial restrictions.
Are we really arguing over 200 minutes of football given to the odd remaining player?

 

£5m seems reasonable to Norwich, Reading, Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Stoke and even Sunderland

[angieram]

18 minutes ago, ColonelBlimp said:

Did you ask the majority of the forum before you posted that?

He didn't ask me but I would agree. ??

[DCFC27]

I like Alonso from what I’ve heard so far, seems like he has his head screwed on and sounds to me that he’s likely to actually have a business model for recruitment. (Something we have really lacked) however it doesn’t seem like the money he’s bringing to the table is his from the murmurs I have heard.
What happens when he upsets his rich friends and they just turn the tap off? 
I’m not actually convinced this will go through, again it seems we have found a buyer that’s desperate enough to get into ownership that they are prepared to buy a club in our covid and relegation threatened state. 

Ultimately under Mel I have always felt he would keep the club running and not allow us to fall in to administration. Owners like Alonso don’t give me that feeling. 
 

[Millenniumram]

6 hours ago, angieram said:

You have explained how you feel eloquently above and I have absolutely no problem with that, but in many other posts you have stated things as fact that haven't happened yet. That's what I find annoying.

Can you see the difference? 

Apologies if I’m over forceful with my opinions, I’m not claiming to know anything as fact, just expressing legitimate concerns - imho at least anyway. At this juncture I’m fearful, simple as that. Maybe those worries are unfounded, but I’m waiting to see some genuine evidence that everything is going to be ok.

[Millenniumram]

6 hours ago, richinspain said:

Excellent translation of the text, however like many transcripts of interviews it is very limited to what it quotes.

In the interview he gives an outline of his background:

His father owned Logroñés football club when he was very young and so being around a football club is normal for him.

He moved to Indonesia when he was 16 for family business, and as he knew the trainer of the national boxing team ( his grandfather was Spanish boxing champion and the trainer also Spanish) he took up the sport to get himself fit. He went on to make 5 professional fights, winning all of them by KO and becoming champion of Indonesia. He became a father at 21 and as he felt that he couldn't give the sport 100% decided to finish.

He moved into the family business in Indonesia of real estate, mainly construction of villas in Bali after studying business.

If he were to buy a club for love it would be Logroñés, but the opportunity to buy DCFC was too interesting to pass up. If however he could buy any club in the world it would be Atlético Madrid.

He spoke to Ramon Calderon recently and they talked about the tie in the European Cup.

The interviewers then asked about the money side of the deal and although he didn't want to give out the numbers for buying the club he did leave them almost speechless with the amount of money in the English game. He is however buying the club with the help of partners he has in a holding.

When asked about the reception he had received from fans he was delighted with the response, although he would have understood if they had said "who's this youngster who has come here and bought our club? What are his intentions?" (@DarkFruitsRam7 and @Millenniumram, your tweets didn't reach him).

They then spoke about Rooney, basically saying what was said in the transcript.

"Is there a Spanish player that you would like to take to Derby County?" was then asked to which he answered Fernando Llorente. After the incredulation of the interwiewers he did say that he had not spoken to Llorente, but that as someone from his region and someone he admires very much he is "the type of player, for his experience and what he would bring" that he would like to sign, but at this moment the club doesn't have that kind of money. However he would be his dream signing.

 

That more or less is the interview. What would I say are my feelings after listening? He is a young man who has known nothing but success. He always gives 100% to whatever he does. He's not in this on his own, but although he didn't say who the other backers are (in no way did he avoid the very brief question, he just didn't elaborate)  or how much input in the day to day running they will have I got the impression that he will be the one running us. He does seem to want nothing but success and does understand how much it could cost. If he has half the success he has had up to now and his ambition would suggest then we're in for quite some ride.

My worries? He may just be too enthusiastic, and although as I said he appears to know the pitfalls, he does seem to drop things when he feels he can't give 100% (take his promising boxing career).

I haven't been to an amusement park in almost 15 years, it looks as though I'm about to go on the biggest and newest there is around.

Did you just accuse me of using Twitter?! I might be a bamford, but I’m not quite a Twitter bamford just yet!?

[Millenniumram]

5 hours ago, Rampage said:

Give the dude a chance. Alon so far so good. He has not bought the club to lose money but to move the club along. If Barnsley can make it to the play offs we should be able to do so. Two of the relegated clubs may well take the automatic places next year but there is room for a team with less cash and a good manager.

Of course I’ll give him a chance if the takeover goes through, provided he shows he’s a safe pair of hands. I don’t think we can be certain of that based on what we’ve seen so far - it’s all just words right now, no actual proof. That will probably come out as the EFL test goes on. 

But yeah, of course we can challenge for promotion next season. Any team can, it just all comes down to money, as usual. And we will need a lot more investment than some other teams. But it’s still possible, if the figures Alonso has mentioned hold true. Do feel we need a proper manager to have any hope though.

[Millenniumram]

This whole consortium or sole owner thing is very confusing. In interviews with the English media, Alonso has seemed to indicate he’s on his own, but that interview over in Spain seemed to suggest he does have backers behind him. All a bit contradictory. You’d have to assume the latter is true, given the links to the more wealthy Indonesian businessmen. But why not say that more openly? If anything, that will reassure fans as they can see evidence of funding for the club.

[Duracell]

2 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

This whole consortium or sole owner thing is very confusing. In interviews with the English media, Alonso has seemed to indicate he’s on his own, but that interview over in Spain seemed to suggest he does have backers behind him. All a bit contradictory. You’d have to assume the latter is true, given the links to the more wealthy Indonesian businessmen. But why not say that more openly? If anything, that will reassure fans as they can see evidence of funding for the club.

Well, this is the concerning thing for me. If he is being economical with the truth about there being a consortium behind him, the kind way of viewing that is that he is making himself accountable for what happens next, protecting the anonymity of any other investors. The cynic in me worries it’s ego.

[RadioactiveWaste]

3 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

This whole consortium or sole owner thing is very confusing. In interviews with the English media, Alonso has seemed to indicate he’s on his own, but that interview over in Spain seemed to suggest he does have backers behind him. All a bit contradictory. You’d have to assume the latter is true, given the links to the more wealthy Indonesian businessmen. But why not say that more openly? If anything, that will reassure fans as they can see evidence of funding for the club.

Anything at this point is speculation, so here's my speculation: The money is "his" in terms of control/responsibility but not entirly "his" in terms of who's funding it is (allowing 2 slightly different takes on the situation). The extent to which it is really his to control we'll probably find out when things start to go wrong!

[rammieib]

16 hours ago, B4ev6is said:

I would love to see Derby play in the champion league one day.

I'd just love to see us play in the Champ one day.

[Mihangel]

2 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

You don’t know that though, do you?

Obviously, if we didn’t have an academy, Will Hughes wouldn’t have come through with us. But my point was that it’s impossible to measure the point at which the additional investment is the difference between Will Hughes making it with us and making it at another club (or not making it at all).

No, I get you - It's a very difficult matter to prove either way. One things for sure though, the best clubs have great facilities and great academies and we should be aiming for that. IMO of course.

[one_chop]

The EFL will rule this chap Erik out I'm afraid so I wouldn't get too carried away.

[TheSlate]

I'm not sure why you think the (less than competent) EFL would rule him out?

Disqualifying Events

The Premier League has tighter restrictions than the Football League or National League. In general, a businessman will fail the test if:

• They have power or influence over another Football League club
• They hold a significant interest in another Football League club
• They become prohibited by law from being a director
• They are filing for bankruptcy
• They have been director of a club while it has suffered two or more unconnected events of insolvency
• They have been a director of two or more clubs of which, while they have been director, has suffered an event of insolvency

[DarkFruitsRam7]

17 minutes ago, ShoreRam said:

No, I get you - It's a very difficult matter to prove either way. One things for sure though, the best clubs have great facilities and great academies and we should be aiming for that. IMO of course.

Absolutely. The dream would be to have the best of everything.

It’s just I’m starting to suspect that, with our limited budget, building up a proper recruitment system might be a better use of resources. Obviously if the new owners are wealthy and are happy to pump money into the academy, then that’s fine if it doesn’t count towards FFP.

[Coneheadjohn]

I’m optimistic about this but I need a bit more information before I get carried away.

When the EFL have ratified the deal and we have avoided relegation it will start to get a bit exciting.

[TheSlate]

6 minutes ago, Coneheadjohn said:

I’m optimistic about this but I need a bit more information before I get carried away.

When the EFL have ratified the deal and we have avoided relegation it will start to get a bit exciting.

It does feel a bit cart before the horse now. I expected the amortisation thing to be wrapped up by now, and you'd assume that the impending outcome of that would have a bearing on the shape of the takeover. 

[Wolfie]

A lot of people are putting a lot of effort into investigating this chap; his backers; his motivations; his politics etc. I'm feeling remarkably calm about the whole thing.

I think it's because the dream has died with Mel selling the club. The dream being having a DCFC fan owner who loved the club and was wealthy enough to gamble (and succeed) in progressing into an established Premiership side.

I'm not going to go into a blame game about Mel and how things have been done but he's risked a large portion of his wealth (and health) with running this club and now we are understandably being sold to business people purely out to make a profit at some unspecified point in the future - with no emotional connection to the club we love.

I suppose I'm resigned to being nothing more than a paying customer of the club, rather than a fellow fan with a connection to the owners.

Assuming this take over goes ahead, I'm not excited one bit. Just sad that it has come to this.

[Millenniumram]

1 hour ago, Duracell said:

Well, this is the concerning thing for me. If he is being economical with the truth about there being a consortium behind him, the kind way of viewing that is that he is making himself accountable for what happens next, protecting the anonymity of any other investors. The cynic in me worries it’s ego.

Indeed, it also raises the possibility that there’s a reason why he wouldn’t want these investors to be known about. Perhaps because they’d fail some sort of EFL test. Not necessarily the case obviously, but there’s a few things to be potentially concerned about.