El DerbyCo

[Topram]

13 minutes ago, Kernow said:

This is the translated version of the story Oktohari posted on his Instagram story. He’s denying any involvement, there’s also mention of a club in Bali who have denied any involvement with Alonso despite his claims...

Seems to get dodger by the hour

[StarterForTen]

1 minute ago, Topram said:

Seems to get dodger by the hour

Apart from Alonso has only ever said that the money is all his and not from third-party investors?

I think it is only media commentators that have suggested the Far East money men link.

[richinspain]

In the translation of the Spanish interview that I posted yesterday he did say that he was part of a holding group, but did not, and would not, name any one else.

[Angry Ram]

25 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

It's taken nearly ten years to build a quality academy set up, started back in the nigel clough days, accelerated by Mel's investment and some people are trying to now say it's been a wasted endevour because of this season - and the plight this season is the least responsibility of the academy and the most on failures of expensive, experienced senior professionals (this season and previous seasons).

No, not just because of this season, it has more focus this season. I don't believe anyone is saying that is soley the responsibility of the academy are they? The club has been riddled with mistakes for years, poor recruitment, poor financial management, poor everything really. It's always a multitude of things that cause the situation. 

[CornwallRam]

12 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Regardless of academy spend, Mel has funded the club to the absolute limit he possibly could (and beyond) under P&S requirements. That funding was on the experienced players you're crying out for. In fact, the academy has helped increase the expenditure on experienced players.

2015: “My goal over the next five years is that at least 50 per cent of our first team will have academy players in it. That’s just one player each year and we are there.” This was just a month after breaking our transfer record 3 times

Again, he stated it as a target, not a mandatory requirement of the manager.

That is incredibly naïve. If the owner and chainman repeatedly states that he need the academy to be utilised to justify his spending on it, then that is a mandatory requirement. It is impossible to argue that forcing academy players through is not Mel's chosen strategy.

[richinspain]

3 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

That is incredibly naïve. If the owner and chainman repeatedly states that he need the academy to be utilised to justify his spending on it, then that is a mandatory requirement. It is impossible to argue that forcing academy players through is not Mel's chosen strategy.

He says his "goal", not a requirement. He's a fan, like all fans we love "one of our own".

[CornwallRam]

12 hours ago, nottingram said:

Mel has funded the first team as far as he possibly can hence selling the stadium, embargoes and other such loopholes to get us through P&S rules. I’m not sure how it could have been funded anymore without us getting deductions. The academy provides a method of producing players at minimal P&S cost which can supplement spending on first team players. It can also provide pure profit which funds more first team players.

Really not sure of your point - the academy literally only effects P&S in a positive manner and we are at the very limit of this. With no academy and no sales of players coming from it we would have had massive points deductions.

As I've pointed out - it is part of the top level strategy. Grow the squad with academy players and fill the gaps with experienced players. That means that we don't pick up on the quality players in their early 20s, who are now ready for the first team and likely to improve in the future. That's why we end up with too many aging journeymen. We sign older players, play our youngsters before they're ready and then either release those youngsters if they fail, or sell them on if they succeed. 

It might be a decent strategy if a Championship club could run sustainably - selling academy graduates certainly helps with FFP. The problem is that developing those players weakens the first team, thus making promotion harder to achieve and the FFP situation progressively worse.

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

That is incredibly naïve. If the owner and chainman repeatedly states that he need the academy to be utilised to justify his spending on it, then that is a mandatory requirement. It is impossible to argue that forcing academy players through is not Mel's chosen strategy.

So the inclusion of which academy player(s) has prevented us from strengthening the squad?

[CornwallRam]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

So the inclusion of which academy player(s) has prevented us from strengthening the squad?

All of them as their inclusion was part of Mel's strategy and part of the requirement given to each manager recruited. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by CornwallRam

[Ghost of Clough]

Just now, CornwallRam said:

All of them as their inclusion was part of Mel's strategy and part of the requirement given to each manager recruited. 

15/16 - instead of Hanson filling in at CM/AM, we either go 442 with Bent up top, or push Baird to CM/AM instead. A few injuries later in the season so we're forced to play Bryson at DM. We continue with an out of form Christie or play Keogh at RB. Injuries to Forsyth and Olsson means that Shackell or Johnson have to play LB. This was all in the season when we had 30+ players on senior wages. Maybe we should have doubled down and signed another LB (on top of Forsyth and Olsson), another RB (on top of Christie and Baird) and another DM/CM/AM (on top of Hendrick, Hughes, Butterfield, Johnson, Bryson and Thorne, with Baird also capable of filling in)

16/17 - Injuries to Olsson and Forsyth gave Lowe a chance. Perhaps we needed that 3rd senior LB afterall

18/19 - Let's sign another RB when we already have Wisdom. Bogle may be good enough but that doesn't matter. We've already got Lawrence, just got Wilson on loan, bought Jozefzoon and Waghorn. But let's sign another winger because we don't want an academy graduate to be 5th choice on the wing, or 4th choice CF!

19/20 - Bogle may have established himself as an excellent RB in this league, and Wisdom is capable backup, but let's sign another anyway? That 3rd choice LB on senior wages we signed back in 15/16 can play a few games again now that Malone and Forsyth are both unavailable. Plus that DM we signed in the same season and hasn't played since can now fill in for the first time since that season because 5 first team options in that position are all injured. We don't want an academy graduate to fill in as 6th choice for 2 positions. Let's continue to play the rubbish Jozefzoon and Anya rather than give a reliable player such as Knight a go. Dowell's doing poorly, but let's not cut his loan short as we don't want Sibley playing.

20/21 - Well with no income from Lowe and Bogle, we can't recruit that exciting young winger from Poland. Anya and Jozefzoon can stick around. We also need to cave in to Huddlestone's demands and give him a 2 year deal on £20k pw just t o prevent Bird playing. Good job we've kept Malone at the club otherwise we'd be forced to include Lowe or Buchanan in the matchday squad.

[angieram]

53 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

As I've pointed out - it is part of the top level strategy. Grow the squad with academy players and fill the gaps with experienced players. That means that we don't pick up on the quality players in their early 20s, who are now ready for the first team and likely to improve in the future. That's why we end up with too many aging journeymen. We sign older players, play our youngsters before they're ready and then either release those youngsters if they fail, or sell them on if they succeed. 

It might be a decent strategy if a Championship club could run sustainably - selling academy graduates certainly helps with FFP. The problem is that developing those players weakens the first team, thus making promotion harder to achieve and the FFP situation progressively worse.

Where do the purchases of Evans, Holmes, Bielik and Jozwiak fit into this? 

I'd argue that at least two of them didn't turn out as we'd hoped, proving that it is a recruitment problem rather than an academy problem.

[CornwallRam]

10 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

15/16 - instead of Hanson filling in at CM/AM, we either go 442 with Bent up top, or push Baird to CM/AM instead. A few injuries later in the season so we're forced to play Bryson at DM. We continue with an out of form Christie or play Keogh at RB. Injuries to Forsyth and Olsson means that Shackell or Johnson have to play LB. This was all in the season when we had 30+ players on senior wages. Maybe we should have doubled down and signed another LB (on top of Forsyth and Olsson), another RB (on top of Christie and Baird) and another DM/CM/AM (on top of Hendrick, Hughes, Butterfield, Johnson, Bryson and Thorne, with Baird also capable of filling in)

16/17 - Injuries to Olsson and Forsyth gave Lowe a chance. Perhaps we needed that 3rd senior LB afterall

18/19 - Let's sign another RB when we already have Wisdom. Bogle may be good enough but that doesn't matter. We've already got Lawrence, just got Wilson on loan, bought Jozefzoon and Waghorn. But let's sign another winger because we don't want an academy graduate to be 5th choice on the wing, or 4th choice CF!

19/20 - Bogle may have established himself as an excellent RB in this league, and Wisdom is capable backup, but let's sign another anyway? That 3rd choice LB on senior wages we signed back in 15/16 can play a few games again now that Malone and Forsyth are both unavailable. Plus that DM we signed in the same season and hasn't played since can now fill in for the first time since that season because 5 first team options in that position are all injured. We don't want an academy graduate to fill in as 6th choice for 2 positions. Let's continue to play the rubbish Jozefzoon and Anya rather than give a reliable player such as Knight a go. Dowell's doing poorly, but let's not cut his loan short as we don't want Sibley playing.

20/21 - Well with no income from Lowe and Bogle, we can't recruit that exciting young winger from Poland. Anya and Jozefzoon can stick around. We also need to cave in to Huddlestone's demands and give him a 2 year deal on £20k pw just t o prevent Bird playing. Good job we've kept Malone at the club otherwise we'd be forced to include Lowe or Buchanan in the matchday squad.

You really are missing the point.

Mel has constantly set targets for academy inclusion.

2015

We have made a commitment that Paul will aim to have at least three academy players in the squad.

We expect to see them used, we expect to see them play and develop. Having that depth, hopefully, will see us not being held hostage to injury this season and in the future.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2015/09/mel-morris-academy-is-significant-to-our-future

 

2020

We are not going to see a team of 11 players from the Academy featuring this season, but the target was for next season 50% of our starting 11 should be Academy players.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/extra-pressure-mel-morris-outlines-4182952

I can't find the quote, but I distinctly remember Mel saying that he'd invested over £30m in the academy and he needed to see a return on that.

Thus, it has never been a 'soft target' but a hard and constant one.

It is possible to develop academy players without making the first team weaker by loaning them out until they show that they are ready for first team football. We choose to not to do that in any significant way. That, I believe, is because those players are needed here to fill squad places, because that is Mel's strategy. Thus, we rely on academy players before they are ready and make the first team a little weaker - please note the nuance. I'm not saying that we are terrible because of the academy graduates. I'm saying that we are forcing them through, making the first team maybe 2% weaker - but that is the fine margin between success and failure at this level. FFP/P&S is only an issue because we haven't been promoted and the academy reliance makes promotion less likely, thus making us rely on the academy to comply with FFP. It is a circle of failure not a benefit to the club.

 

[CornwallRam]

25 minutes ago, angieram said:

Where do the purchases of Evans, Holmes, Bielik and Jozwiak fit into this? 

I'd argue that at least two of them didn't turn out as we'd hoped, proving that it is a recruitment problem rather than an academy problem.

But they are the exceptions to the rule. They are exactly what we should be spending money and exactly the type of player we should be developing. Even if Evans and Holmes didn't set the place on fire, we had useful squad players for a couple of seasons and (I think?) made a small profit when they moved on. 

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an academy. I'm saying that it shouldn't be the main focus and the owner should never instruct the manager to use it. Let the manager decide when he believes that the players are ready. Producing a good player every two seasons is fine. We also shouldn't have an academy that the owner can't afford. If the owner can write off £5m per season on it without trying to force the manager's hand, great. I can't help thinking that a Cat 2 costing about £1m per season is far more realistic.

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

You really are missing the point.

Mel has constantly set targets for academy inclusion.

2015

We have made a commitment that Paul will aim to have at least three academy players in the squad.

We expect to see them used, we expect to see them play and develop. Having that depth, hopefully, will see us not being held hostage to injury this season and in the future.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2015/09/mel-morris-academy-is-significant-to-our-future

 

2020

We are not going to see a team of 11 players from the Academy featuring this season, but the target was for next season 50% of our starting 11 should be Academy players.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/extra-pressure-mel-morris-outlines-4182952

I can't find the quote, but I distinctly remember Mel saying that he'd invested over £30m in the academy and he needed to see a return on that.

Thus, it has never been a 'soft target' but a hard and constant one.

It is possible to develop academy players without making the first team weaker by loaning them out until they show that they are ready for first team football. We choose to not to do that in any significant way. That, I believe, is because those players are needed here to fill squad places, because that is Mel's strategy. Thus, we rely on academy players before they are ready and make the first team a little weaker - please note the nuance. I'm not saying that we are terrible because of the academy graduates. I'm saying that we are forcing them through, making the first team maybe 2% weaker - but that is the fine margin between success and failure at this level. FFP/P&S is only an issue because we haven't been promoted and the academy reliance makes promotion less likely, thus making us rely on the academy to comply with FFP. It is a circle of failure not a benefit to the club.

 

THE POINT is that the squad is weak - we both agree on that. You claim that's because Mel forces the managers to play academy graduates.

Up until Lampard joined, those academy graduates only played due to several injuries in each position. For example, Hanson had to fill in at LB even though we had Forsyth, Olsson and Warnock at the club.

Even during Lampard's season, Lowe was the 4th most used LB. Bird was used less than 8 other CMs and Bennett was out 5th most used winger (Wilson, Lawrence, Jozefzoon and Waghorn)

Cocu initially only used his 3rd choice LB because he was one of only 2 fit full backs available. Bird came into the side when he was 7th choice CM.

This season, the injury to Bielik and Rooney's unexpected role change meant we have been 2 men lighter in midfield than we had hoped resulting in more game time than perhaps we would have hoped for Bird, Knight and Sibley. Whittaker, Gordon and JML have been 5th choice at best on the wings this season (Jozwiak, Lawrence, Waghorn, Ibe, then Roberts in Jan). Kazim, Waghorn, Rooney, Gregory and Marriott have all played more at CF than Trialist, Stretton and Cresswell (combined).

 

THE PROBLEM isn't giving academy graduate game time. We've been limited in our recruitment for the past two seasons in particular due to historic recruitment. In 16/17, we used Bent, Vydra, Nugent, Martin and Wilson up top. We also used Ince, Russell, Weimann, Anya, Camara and Blackman on the wings. Can you not see why we're in this position?

[Curtains]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

THE POINT is that the squad is weak - we both agree on that. You claim that's because Mel forces the managers to play academy graduates.

Up until Lampard joined, those academy graduates only played due to several injuries in each position. For example, Hanson had to fill in at LB even though we had Forsyth, Olsson and Warnock at the club.

Even during Lampard's season, Lowe was the 4th most used LB. Bird was used less than 8 other CMs and Bennett was out 5th most used winger (Wilson, Lawrence, Jozefzoon and Waghorn)

Cocu initially only used his 3rd choice LB because he was one of only 2 fit full backs available. Bird came into the side when he was 7th choice CM.

This season, the injury to Bielik and Rooney's unexpected role change meant we have been 2 men lighter in midfield than we had hoped resulting in more game time than perhaps we would have hoped for Bird, Knight and Sibley. Whittaker, Gordon and JML have been 5th choice at best on the wings this season (Jozwiak, Lawrence, Waghorn, Ibe, then Roberts in Jan). Kazim, Waghorn, Rooney, Gregory and Marriott have all played more at CF than Trialist, Stretton and Cresswell (combined).

 

THE PROBLEM isn't giving academy graduate game time. We've been limited in our recruitment for the past two seasons in particular due to historic recruitment. In 16/17, we used Bent, Vydra, Nugent, Martin and Wilson up top. We also used Ince, Russell, Weimann, Anya, Camara and Blackman on the wings. Can you not see why we're in this position?

Can’t you remember the 5 academy player remark.

[Ghost of Clough]

22 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

But they are the exceptions to the rule. They are exactly what we should be spending money and exactly the type of player we should be developing. Even if Evans and Holmes didn't set the place on fire, we had useful squad players for a couple of seasons and (I think?) made a small profit when they moved on. 

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an academy. I'm saying that it shouldn't be the main focus and the owner should never instruct the manager to use it. Let the manager decide when he believes that the players are ready. Producing a good player every two seasons is fine. We also shouldn't have an academy that the owner can't afford. If the owner can write off £5m per season on it without trying to force the manager's hand, great. I can't help thinking that a Cat 2 costing about £1m per season is far more realistic.

That's the thing. It wasn't until the likes of Evans and Holmes were injured that the academy graduates got their chance. No academy graduate has entered a season as first choice until they established themselves, and in most cases, they weren't even backups when the season started.
Bogle was an exception in 18/19, but he was still only 2nd choice to start with.
Even Knight in 19/20 would have started off behind Waghorn, Lawrence, Jozefzoon, Paterson and Bennett on the wing; Bielik, Evans, Huddlestone, Shinnie, Holmes, Dowell (and eventually Rooney) for a midfield spot.
Lowe was 3rd choice LB in 19/20
Buchanan this season would have been down to finances (having to sell Lowe and loan out Malone), but was still Forsyth's backup.
Bird and Knight deserved to be starters this season backed on previous performances. I think they would have found themselves as backups to a preferred trio of Bielik, Rooney and Holmes if circumstances were slightly different.

[Curtains]

2 hours ago, CornwallRam said:

All of them as their inclusion was part of Mel's strategy and part of the requirement given to each manager recruited. 

Totally agree 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, Curtains said:

Can’t you remember the 5 academy player remark.

Yes. It was stated as an aim, a target, an aspiration. Not an absolute must. Interesting that Rooney is typically only fielding 2 at a time.

[Curtains]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Yes. It was stated as an aim, a target, an aspiration. Not an absolute must. Interesting that Rooney is typically only fielding 2 at a time.

The playing academy players edict is why we are in the mess we are at the moment .

I suspect Rowett left because of it. 
 

Lampard was irritated by it. 
 

Cocu adhered to it and got sacked 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Curtains

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

The playing academy players edict is why we are in the mess we are at the moment .

I suspect Rowett left because of it. 
 

Cocu adhered to it and got sacked 

But almost all of the academy graduates only got their chances after an injury crisis in their position - Bird 7th choice CM, Lowe 3rd choice LB, Knight/Whittaker/Bennett as 5th-7th choice on the wing, etc...

Rowett left because he was told we wouldn't have any money to spend - Lampard cashed in on Vydra to fund his purchases.

Cocu a victim of finances - unable to retain Bogle, Lowe, Martin and Huddlestone. Plus, forced to loan out Marriott and Malone.