EFL appeal

[Kernow]

8 minutes ago, angieram said:

That's what I am saying. Surely taking six points and moving on is better than fighting over it all summer and jeopardising a whole lot more points by not being able to plan? 

I would take anything up to 6; any more and we should fight it (if we are allowed to.) 

I can't believe that I am typing that because I think the EFL are bang out of order in what they have done, especially the way it has dragged on and already affected us BUT they seem determined to make an example of us sooner or later, so I think we need to get on with it.

You'd think their ridiculous FFP/ P&S rules have got to change soon, or as @Ambitious says, there will just be a procession of clubs falling foul of them every season.

It’s a ridiculous system and does the exact opposite of something that’s financially fair is meant to do. Clubs are overspending to match sides with parachute payments in the hope they can get promoted and then live off parachute payments if they come back down.

Yet if you are successful in reaching your goals, you can’t be punished, not unless you come back down at least. And even then the benefits still outweighed the punishment.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

15 minutes ago, Pearl Ram said:

I doubt they’ll be in any Rush to tell you their source. 

 

1 minute ago, Nuwtfly said:

 

You're both Rushing to conclusions

You were beaten to the pun, @Nuwtfly

[DarkFruitsRam7]

If we were in Wycombe’s shoes, the number of people on here who would have a different opinion is ludicrous.

[Topram]

Just now, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

If we were in Wycombe’s shoes, the number of people on here who would have a different opinion is ludicrous.

PPG is the only reason they got into the play offs last season 

[Kernow]

19 minutes ago, Boycie said:

I wonder where all these ITK rumours are coming from.

Certain posters were ITK when we had a certain person high up at the club, but lost it when he left.

Now, rumours are that he wants back in at the club, and the ITK’ers have chirped up again?

Hmmmmm.

Good point well made Boycie!

[inter politics]

Have Mel and Sam made up?!

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

10 minutes ago, angieram said:

That's what I am saying. Surely taking six points and moving on is better than fighting over it all summer and jeopardising a whole lot more points by not being able to plan? 

I would take anything up to 6; any more and we should fight it (if we are allowed to.) 

I can't believe that I am typing that because I think the EFL are bang out of order in what they have done, especially the way it has dragged on and already affected us BUT they seem determined to make an example of us sooner or later, so I think we need to get on with it.

You'd think their ridiculous FFP/ P&S rules have got to change soon, or as @Ambitious says, there will just be a procession of clubs falling foul of them every season.

Problem is a 6 point deduction is manageable but 

A- It will mean issues as to why it wasn't applied this season from the club finishing 3rd from bottom

B- This idea that points can't be deducted after March only applies to administration.

C- Accounts will be resubmitted and we have diddly chance of bringing in any players.

D- The resubmitting of accounts will likely bring about another charge further down the line if losses are re hashed.

These tools signed of our amortisation then changed there minds.  We can't take a point deduction of any kind and as a business need to sue the organisation should they try as future business and expense was based on on their go ahead. 

 

[angieram]

Just now, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Problem is a 6 point deduction is manageable but 

A- It will mean issues as to why it wasn't applied this season from the club finishing 3rd from bottom

B- This idea that points can't be deducted after March only applies to administration.

C- Accounts will be resubmitted and we have diddly chance of bringing in any players.

D- The resubmitting of accounts will likely bring about another charge further down the line if losses are re hashed.

These tools signed of our amortisation then changed there minds.  We can't take a point deduction of any kind and as a business need to sue the organisation should they try as future business and expense was based on on their go ahead. 

 

And how long do you think that will take? 

What do we do in the meantime - go into administration? Because we sure as hell won't be able to afford any players with all this hanging over us and legal bills on top of probably another transfer embargo.

[MrPlinkett]

4 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

If we were in Wycombe’s shoes, the number of people on here who would have a different opinion is ludicrous.

Absolutely we would. But we aren't. 

[nottingram]

1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

If we were in Wycombe’s shoes, the number of people on here who would have a different opinion is ludicrous.

But the charge is relating to activity from years ago. Wycombe are no more entitled to benefit from it than whoever finished 22nd last season or whoever will finish 22nd next season. 

They can by all means wonder why the EFL didn’t make their case well enough in the original hearing, or why this appeal has dragged on and only reached a conclusion now.

Imagine a hypothetical situation where Derby were safe a month ago, put their feet up and played the U12’s for the rest of the season and ended up one point clear of 22nd, only to get docked points when it ends. That would be ridiculous, but the order Derby achieved their points in should have no bearing on when they receive their punishment, so is still ridiculous now.

[Nuwtfly]

Can understand why some are saying we should take an (estimated) 6 point deduction on the chin, just so that we can move on and be done with all this nonsense...

...but is that the same 6 point deduction that eventually saw Sheffield Wednesday get relegated? I'm not sure I'd trust this management team to keep us up if we started on 0 points, let alone -6!

[Gone]

I’d take anything now, relegation, points deduction, fine, anything. What we can’t have is another pre season where our hands are tied and we can’t do anything about re-shaping of the squad. If that’s to be the case then next season will be death by a thousand cuts as we’d be all at certainly down and probably down by Christmas. Please just get this and any potential take over done and dusted, let us move on you complete bunch of cockwomble EFL Cnuts...........

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, angieram said:

What do we do in the meantime - go into administration? 

Genuinely don't think MM would want to go into administration. He'd lose it all if we did that

He's still rich enough to be able to afford to keep bankrolling the club, he just doesn't want to any more - hence him desperately trying to sell us to any yank, sheik or boxer that expresses an interest

But if it were administration or keep chucking money at it until a genuine buyer is found, I think he'd choose the latter

Problem is - *genuine* buyers seem far and few between - and with the EFL appeal decision still outstanding who can blame them?

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Stive Pesley

[RadioactiveWaste]

7 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

If we were in Wycombe’s shoes, the number of people on here who would have a different opinion is ludicrous.

I fully understand that. To be honest, if you are Wycombe and a points deducted comes next season not this, and that changes the division you're in, of course you'll want to fight your corner on it.

[Kernow]

Just now, Nuwtfly said:

Can understand why some are saying we should take an (estimated) 6 point deduction on the chin, just so that we can move on and be done with all this nonsense...

...but is that the same 6 point deduction that eventually saw Sheffield Wednesday get relegated? I'm not sure I'd trust this management team to keep us up if we started on 0 points, let alone -6!

Sheffield Wednesday were hit with 12 points though which is a key point. If we got a 12 deduction we’d be right up against it too.

SWFC have a right to be very aggrieved. The difference in recruiting players based on that deduction, and the mentality around the club had to be impacted by that.

Six points would be manageable if it allows us to move on and get recruitment sorted. Even with our current squad and coaching staff, ‘poor’ form would’ve seen us more than 6 points clear. It just so happened we had abysmal form and stayed up by 1 point instead.

[Spanish]

9 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Problem is a 6 point deduction is manageable but 

A- It will mean issues as to why it wasn't applied this season from the club finishing 3rd from bottom

B- This idea that points can't be deducted after March only applies to administration.

C- Accounts will be resubmitted and we have diddly chance of bringing in any players.

D- The resubmitting of accounts will likely bring about another charge further down the line if losses are re hashed.

These tools signed of our amortisation then changed there minds.  We can't take a point deduction of any kind and as a business need to sue the organisation should they try as future business and expense was based on on their go ahead. 

 

139) Even had we concluded that what the EFL had done in June/July 2018 and/or February 2019 did amount to a ‘determination’ for the purposes of P&S Rule 2.3, we would have accepted the EFL’s argument that, absent good reason, it would as a matter of law nonetheless have been permitted to revisit that ‘determination’ and reach a different determination if that earlier determination was found to have been reached on the basis of fundamental mistake

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 minute ago, angieram said:

And how long do you think that will take? 

What do we do in the meantime - go into administration? Because we sure as hell won't be able to afford any players with all this hanging over us and legal bills on top of probably another transfer embargo.

Not long. They've had 7 months to prepare for it. The other option if they apply any deduction to this season- and they can- is take the relegation and go into admin anyway. The other option is resubmit accounts if found guilty, take the deduction for next season and be outside FFP and have a squad of 10 players with none to come in.  Neither is palatable. 

 

 

[B4ev6is]

Did notice how we protested and charges got dropped all sudden were not allowed they got brought back in again.

If thousands get outside efl front gates they soon get dropped again once cocu said if mess with one of us you mess with all of us.

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yeah. It was absolutely to change which financial year the remainder of the players value was amortized away in.

Is this a fact? I am pretty sure I read that player values were amortised down to zero at the start of the final year of the contract.

7 hours ago, Rev said:

That's the point though. It was a spivvy financial deal, purely to push any loss incurred into a different accounting period.

See above.

5 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

that accept P&S (FFP) submissions which are based on the accounts. HMRC don't have an issue with our accounts other than this year's being late.

This is nothing to do with HMRC. The accounts are late at Companies House. I doubt HMRC are too bothered about a company with £x millions of accumulated losses.

2 hours ago, Asheville Ram said:

I prefer to accept the opinion of someone who lectures in accountancy and football finance rather than the bar room opinions of non experts, you are confusing capital with liquidity, which despite requests from the EFL for the Spanish kid to deposit funds into a bank account for proof of cash has not happened.

He/she is not confusing anything. There is no way you can deduce what is in a companies bank account by looking at the statement of capital.

What evidence do you have regarding your last sentence?

1 hour ago, inter politics said:

I'm not saying who's right, as I haven't calculated it. Just for reference.

I am saying that is complete and utter guesswork by KL. Not saying his figure is not correct but there is no way on earth that he has calculated the correct figure, it would be right by pure fluke.

To calculate the figure, he would need to know transfer fee for each individual player, length of contract, residual value assigned to each player, sales proceeds for each individual player.

Cannot see if he has stated this in his assumptions or not as I have no interest in reading articles of someone masquerading as an expert.

1 hour ago, EdinRam said:

They can deduct something like 21 or 24 points but i reckon it would be 6-12

Thats funny, as you said 3 points about 3 pages back. 

Think it was good work by whoever outed you as a WUM the other day.

1 hour ago, Spanish said:

No one else is doing it.  It’s not wrong per se but it relies heavily on estimated residual values.  So where other clubs will write down a £4m 4 year contract at 1m pa we Could claim that Marriott is worth £4m up until the end of year 3 and then take the hit in year 4.  I have always been a critic of this dangerous practise.  We are very good at buying at the top price then give them away for nothing at the end.  There is too much temptation to fiddle the ERV if the club is close to breach, allegedly.

But if the method was incorrect it would lead to huge losses every time a player was sold or contract expired.

In which case the auditors would be required to flag up that suitable accounting policies were not being used. 

[NottsRam77]

41 minutes ago, Spanish said:

50) Perhaps surprisingly there is said to be no written record (contemporaneous or otherwise)
a) Of the discussions that took place in 2015 between the Club and Smith Cooper
b) Of the Club’s internal deliberations in 2015 over whether to alter its approach to amortisation to
capitalised costs of player registrations
c) Of the Club’s decision to adopt an altered approach, or
d) Of the Club’s implementation of that approach.
As a result, the majority of the evidence that we heard on such matters was entirely oral, given by Mr Pearce and Mr Delve. 

So in summary ??

they didn’t sign it off ?

I thought the club said they had written evidence or something