Paul Warne

[Crewton]

35 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Preston and Bristol City both sacked previous managers for playing pragmatic defensive football and went on to hire managers who favor possession-based football. Norwich still have parachute payments and have decent players, while a number of their fans want Wagner out.

It’s not a case that you can’t succeed with lesser possession. Derby are proof of that in League One as we are 11th in that category.

Warne can get away with it in League One as we simply have better players than the rest and the opposition standards are so much lower. 

In League One we are 11th for possession, 8th for shots per game, 11th for pass accuracy and 6th for chances created. Yet we are 2nd in the league, which is a clear indication that our extra quality is seeing us over the line.

That won’t be the case in the league above.

Ah...... about that change of style..... you might want to read this thread:

https://www.otib.co.uk/topic/224125-change-in-style/

[sunnyhill60]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Preston and Bristol City both sacked previous managers for playing pragmatic defensive football and went on to hire managers who favor possession-based football. Norwich still have parachute payments and have decent players, while a number of their fans want Wagner out.

It’s not a case that you can’t succeed with lesser possession. Derby are proof of that in League One as we are 11th in that category.

Warne can get away with it in League One as we simply have better players than the rest and the opposition standards are so much lower. 

In League One we are 11th for possession, 8th for shots per game, 11th for pass accuracy and 6th for chances created. Yet we are 2nd in the league, which is a clear indication that our extra quality is seeing us over the line.

That won’t be the case in the league above.

How many times have you sat at a keyboard and typed this nonsense out? You are bashing your head against a brick wall.

If promoted the aim will be consolidation and who is to say Warne will not be able to deliver that? The owner will have a far more realistic perspective than you.

[Bris Vegas]

43 minutes ago, sunnyhill60 said:

How many times have you sat at a keyboard and typed this nonsense out? You are bashing your head against a brick wall.

If promoted the aim will be consolidation and who is to say Warne will not be able to deliver that? The owner will have a far more realistic perspective than you.

The aim has to be the Premier League. Maybe not in year 1, or even year 2 or 3. But the PL has to be the aim.

And we have no chance of getting there with Warne as manager.

So why keep him?

It’s not even like he is at least improving our younger players or adding any value to our current players. 

[Rammy03]

13 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

The aim has to be the Premier League. Maybe not in year 1, or even year 2 or 3. But the PL has to be the aim.

And we have no chance of getting there with Warne as manager.

This is simply a hunch with nothing tangible to back it up.

How you can say this with such certainty is beyond me.

[Bris Vegas]

3 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

This is simply a hunch with nothing tangible to back it up.

How you can say this with such certainty is beyond me.

I can say with certainty because he isn’t a good coach. He could get us up if we had the best set of players in the Championship, but that is never going to happen without significant investment and smart recruitment.

Warne isn’t any better than say Tony Mowbray.

And Tony Mowbray couldn’t get over the line with Blackburn or Sunderland - teams with better players than us.

So we have a squad with less quality than Blackburn managed by a coach who isn’t as good as Tony Mowbray. Why on earth would anyone fancy Warne to get us up to the Premier League.

We will be wasting our time with him in the Championship.

 

 

[Wolfie20]

53 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I can say with certainty because he isn’t a good coach. He could get us up if we had the best set of players in the Championship, but that is never going to happen without significant investment and smart recruitment.

Warne isn’t any better than say Tony Mowbray.

And Tony Mowbray couldn’t get over the line with Blackburn or Sunderland - teams with better players than us.

So we have a squad with less quality than Blackburn managed by a coach who isn’t as good as Tony Mowbray. Why on earth would anyone fancy Warne to get us up to the Premier League.

We will be wasting our time with him in the Championship.

 

 

The thing is, you can't say with certainty - this is only your opinion and not necessarily what will happen in the future. Your often pompous posting is no more relevant than any other poster on here but you give the impression of being the all-knowing expert. I have no idea as to what the next 1, 2 or 3 years will bring, any more than you have.

[Chester40]

14 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

The crazy thing is, I fully regard you as pro-Warne. I know you're not and it's interesting thinking about it now that your sheer common sense stands at such odds with the rhetoric of the 'Warne Out' brigade that it makes you seem directly opposed to them... 

When I think about it, there's very few posters I would say are out and out 'pro-Warne', it's almost like the moderates have been radicalised into backing the manager more than they feel naturally, because of the ridiculous amount of negativity from the other side?

I made this point in the time when things were at their worst. I saw myself as a 'give him a chance' fan,  rather than pro-Warne yet sometimes it felt I was one of only a handful arguing to keep him.

His record was there to be seen, the results weren't that bad and the performances weren't as shocking as suggested. Fortunately patience was kept and he's improved us to be about where I'd think is par.

I'm actually probably closer to Warne out now with us second, than when we dropping out the play off places early in the season,  because he's had time with his 'own' squad and a couple of performances recently have been horrible.

He's here for the season...anything can wait til the close season.

[Tamworthram]

4 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

The aim has to be the Premier League. Maybe not in year 1, or even year 2 or 3. But the PL has to be the aim.

And we have no chance of getting there with Warne as manager.

So why keep him?

It’s not even like he is at least improving our younger players or adding any value to our current players. 

Warne’s current remit is to get us promoted to the Championship and become an established Championship team. Getting back into the PL is a long term goal which we can worry about further down the line. I really don’t understand why you think DC would or should sack the manager he appointed on a long term contract if he achieves the first of those objectives but was not given the chance to achieve the second. 
 

I’m not overly confident that PW will do well for us in the Championship but I definitely think he would have earned the right to have a crack at it. I’m pretty confident that DC does as well. 
 

My gut feeling is that the only way PW will be sacked before his contract expires is 1) we miss out on the play offs this year AND plummet down the league [neither of those are looking likely], 2) we narrowly miss out this season AND are not seriously in the mix after a dozen games or so next season, or 3) we get promoted but really struggle and find ourselves in a relegation battle. The third scenario is the most likely but heck, whatever some of us may think of his tactics or management style, or how much reliance we attach to his track record at Rotherham, he deserves the right to have a go.

 

edit: I’d go as far as saying getting back into the PL is more of an aspiration than a target at the moment and certainly not something that would be on a managers list of measurable objectives right now.

Edited February 15 by Tamworthram

[FindernRam]

An old saying  "The Peter Principle" says if you shine in your job, you rise to your level of incompetence. Then you are replaced. So two thoughts:

PW has/is doing well at this level. We will go up and he may do well at the next level ,and maybe even the Prem . At some point he falls short and we will replace him. However if he does really well, he himself may move to a bigger and better job or be poached.

Alternatively we find a rising star now. Can we guarantee he will not be incompetent at the next level? Also if he's as good as we think others will also have spotted him and temptation to a bigger club will follow.

We tend to be judged in life on our results and football is even more driven that way. PW results by the only standard that counts are good. So I feel we go with the flow and enjoy the ride! 

[Returning ram]

Shows the mentality and probably lack of understanding by some fans if they are judging PW against an objective of getting to the PL.

Billy D, Jim S and Arthur C are the only managers in my lifetime that have ever got us promoted and some are saying that PW will never do it, so sack him.

Mel Morris comes to mind for some reason 😏

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, Returning ram said:

Shows the mentality and probably lack of understanding by some fans if they are judging PW against an objective of getting to the PL.

Billy D, Jim S and Arthur C are the only managers in my lifetime that have ever got us promoted and some are saying that PW will never do it, so sack him.

Mel Morris comes to mind for some reason 😏

Clowes mentioned something about the Prem? So we can't judge him on getting us to the Prem, then what metrics? Standard of football? Income generated from player sales?

Edited February 15 by RoyMac5

[TomTom92]

Pure speculation at the moment and for me its too early.

Lets face it, even if our form completely nosedived i doubt DC would get rid before the end of the season. 

If we do go up and its a big if at the moment then it would be incredibly harsh to sack Warne as despite his many flaws he has objectively completed his mission whether its been nice on the eye or not. With PW a nice guy and DC seemingly a nice guy I somewhat doubt we'd be this harsh upon promotion.

If we miss out on promotion this season then I think there's need to discuss PW future. Personally i'd like him gone under this proviso but once again DC backed him once before, maybe he'll back him again. 

Ultimately none of us have a crystal ball and if Iain Dowie can get promoted from the championship as manager then anyone can. Lets worry about the championship if we get there. 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Clowes mentioned something about the Prem? So we can't judge him on getting us to the Prem, then what metrics? Standard of football? Income generated from player sales?

The club have previously talked about a 4 year plan, and Pearce spoke about 'phases' on Tuesday. It aligns withthe 4 year contract Warne was given too. If we take years to be phases then we have:
1. Challenge for the Playoffs (we finished 1 point off 6th)
2. Challenge for automatics (we're currently 2nd on pts, 3rd on ppg)
3. Avoid relegation from the Championship
4. Midtable in the Championship

Based on Warne's primary objective, he'll be meeting expectations.

You can judge him on other objectives if you want (such as youth progression, style of play, etc), but the primary objective is king. Exceeding in those secondary objectives would likely buy a maanger more time if struggling with the primary, but that appears to be the risk Warne wants to take.

[Gerry Daly]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The club have previously talked about a 4 year plan, and Pearce spoke about 'phases' on Tuesday. It aligns withthe 4 year contract Warne was given too. If we take years to be phases then we have:
1. Challenge for the Playoffs (we finished 1 point off 6th)
2. Challenge for automatics (we're currently 2nd on pts, 3rd on ppg)
3. Avoid relegation from the Championship
4. Midtable in the Championship

Based on Warne's primary objective, he'll be meeting expectations.

You can judge him on other objectives if you want (such as youth progression, style of play, etc), but the primary objective is king. Exceeding in those secondary objectives would likely buy a maanger more time if struggling with the primary, but that appears to be the risk Warne wants to take.

I think you are right. I suppose we have to remember how long Ipswich and Sunderland - and others - took to get out of this division. IF we get promotion this year, getting out in two seasons from the position we were in would be very good going

[AutoWindscreens]

21 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Posters on both sides of the fence can be just as irritating.
It’s probably a given that if you are Pro Warne you’d get irritated by those most anti-Warne, and if you’re anti-Warne you’d get irritated by those most pro-Warne….and for everyone who’s somewhere in between…. it’s all quite irritating. 

I'm somewhere in between, and I find that reading the views of people from both ends of the Warne spectrum help me to understand my own complicated and mutable feelings about him.

Possibly that counts as an appalling breach of the rules of engagement.

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The club have previously talked about a 4 year plan, and Pearce spoke about 'phases' on Tuesday. It aligns withthe 4 year contract Warne was given too. If we take years to be phases then we have:
1. Challenge for the Playoffs (we finished 1 point off 6th)
2. Challenge for automatics (we're currently 2nd on pts, 3rd on ppg)
3. Avoid relegation from the Championship
4. Midtable in the Championship

Based on Warne's primary objective, he'll be meeting expectations.

You can judge him on other objectives if you want (such as youth progression, style of play, etc), but the primary objective is king. Exceeding in those secondary objectives would likely buy a maanger more time if struggling with the primary, but that appears to be the risk Warne wants to take.

Ah right. 👍

I was remembering a quote from a Percy Telegraph interview with Clowes "...Clowes believes that Derby can make it back to the top-flight in no time, and admits he is extremely positive about the future, he added: "Derby County is a big football club and if we get this right there’s no reason why we can’t be back in the Premier League in years to come." Not the same thing as you say.

[WestKentRam]

22 hours ago, Big Bad Bob said:

I think we should have a poll on whether we should have separate threads, one for Warne Out and one for Warne In .... 😶

Or a separate thread debating the various Paul Warne threads?

22 hours ago, Gerry Daly said:

Our problem is that our home fans - absolutely rightly - would not be happy with 30% possession at home in a third division game

I'm sure you're right but it also depends on the style of football. I find nothing more tedious than possession based side to side crab football without any attacking threat, that had been our modus operandi in the recent past.

It sticks in my throat to use FFP cheats (don't get me started) Leicester as an example, but they won the PL in 15/16 with 42.4% average possession, although with a particular counter attacking style that we don't possess to the same degree.

What I like to see is positive attacking football. In the past while watching our games under different managers, drifting off into boredom and struggling to work out which way we were kicking, I did think that if an alien was suddenly dropped into our stadium they'd have no idea the aim of the game was to get the ball into the opposition's net.

When PW took over it seemed that for the first couple of games a switch was flicked as if no backwards or sidewards passes were allowed, pressing was everything with forward attacking football. That didn't last long and there now seems to be a lot more hopeful balls forward up in the air, with bouts of head tennis and lack of coordinated passing between players.

Overall it seems obvious PW knows 'how to get out of this league' and hopefully we'll do so this season, but I share others' views that it often isn't an easy watch.

 

[FKANorwichExile]

I'm probably alone in thinking promotion would actually suit Warneball. We're on for our best away form season ever, and part of that is that teams are forced into attacking us on their home patch. We have a strong core to the defence and can counter quickly. Where we struggle is breaking down teams doing exactly what we want to do; sitting deep and breaking quickly. Promotion would mean we were not the heavy favourites for every game and teams would be expecting to take points off us, so would attack more freely and play into our underdog gameplan.

Is it fun to watch? Heck no, it's dour and boring. But it's effective. 30% possession away at Exeter sounds abysmal untill you read their fans saying we played them off the park and showed a real quality difference.

[duncanjwitham]

6 minutes ago, NorwichExile said:

I'm probably alone in thinking promotion would actually suit Warneball. We're on for our best away form season ever, and part of that is that teams are forced into attacking us on their home patch. We have a strong core to the defence and can counter quickly. Where we struggle is breaking down teams doing exactly what we want to do; sitting deep and breaking quickly. Promotion would mean we were not the heavy favourites for every game and teams would be expecting to take points off us, so would attack more freely and play into our underdog gameplan.

Is it fun to watch? Heck no, it's dour and boring. But it's effective. 30% possession away at Exeter sounds abysmal untill you read their fans saying we played them off the park and showed a real quality difference.

The bit in bold is the key though, because it won't be true in the Championship - the majority of teams will have better players than us.  Exeter created enough chances to think a half-decent Championship team would have scored at least one, and we probably don't score all of the goals we did against better defenders.

[Ghost of Clough]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Ah right. 👍

I was remembering a quote from a Percy Telegraph interview with Clowes "...Clowes believes that Derby can make it back to the top-flight in no time, and admits he is extremely positive about the future, he added: "Derby County is a big football club and if we get this right there’s no reason why we can’t be back in the Premier League in years to come." Not the same thing as you say.

"Years to come" could be 10 years from now. It doesn't contradict the 4 year plan previously mentioned. For full context, the full quote in Percy's interview is:

Quote

Derby County is a big football club and if we get this right there’s no reason why we can’t be back in the Premier League in years to come.
The short-term aim is obviously promotion out of League One. It has gone very quickly and I think we’ve done some good things.
I know what we’re trying to do behind the scenes and I’m really excited about the future of the club.
I’m seeing the club progress and feel very privileged that I’m in this position.

At no point did he say "top-flight in no-time". Clowes and Pearce have mentioned steady progress, meaning Warne's brief over his 4 year contract is to make us a midtable Championship club. At a suitable point in time, the club will review the situation and either extend his contract (as they think he's capable of taking us further) or move on to the next maanger.