Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[Lander]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Looked like the Administrators were in the ‘chairmans’ seat in the ground tonight.

I think I could see Pearce but no MM anywhere.

Im fairly certain they were in their car parking spaces too.

[ollycutts1982]

I liked the fact that in the interview on RD before the game with Carl Jackson from the administrators said ‘I hope we get the win’. For me it’s nice that they seem to genuinely want what’s best for the club. Clear that they are football people. 

[Comrade 86]

Setting aside the endless second-guessing for a moment, you'd like to think that the performances in adversity of the coaches and playing staff ought really be making a few more potential investors sit up and take notice. Even taking off my Derby goggs for a moment, I'd say out lads are looking more and more impressive by the week. Seems the EFL may need to roll out their 9 additional points trump card after all as I fancy us to cover the initial 12 points in double quick time.

[Topram]

4 hours ago, BuckoBeast said:

Is Topram ITK

No not at all ? was on bbc Radio Derby on the way 

[Topram]

32 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Looked like the Administrators were in the ‘chairmans’ seat in the ground tonight.

I think I could see Pearce but no MM anywhere.

Pearce was in attendance 

[angieram]

1 hour ago, ollycutts1982 said:

I liked the fact that in the interview on RD before the game with Carl Jackson from the administrators said ‘I hope we get the win’. For me it’s nice that they seem to genuinely want what’s best for the club. Clear that they are football people. 

I'd love to know what they thought of that atmosphere. They need to bottle it and add it to their teaser pack! 

[Sheff Ram]

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Sheff Ram
Typo

[Reggie Greenwood]

9 minutes ago, Sheff Ram said:

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

Source of the report ? 

[Reggie Greenwood]

10 minutes ago, Sheff Ram said:

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

Administrators indicated that the HMRC debt is negotiable as they would prefer something rather than nothing if the club goes bump , I presume that’s a fact ? 

[atherstoneram]

11 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

Administrators indicated that the HMRC debt is negotiable as they would prefer something rather than nothing if the club goes bump , I presume that’s a fact ? 

That would depend on what the administrators feel is a good percentage of the amount owed and what the HMRC see as their bottom line.The HMRC are holding all the cards in this situation.

[CornwallRam]

5 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

Administrators indicated that the HMRC debt is negotiable as they would prefer something rather than nothing if the club goes bump , I presume that’s a fact ? 

From what I've been able to ascertain, the new rules effectively give HMRC the power of veto on a CVA. They used to just be another creditor, with the same voting rights, so a CVA could be agreed without their consent if the other creditors agreed on a pro-rata voting share. 

The different versions arise from this being the first administration since the rules changed. No one knows how hard ball HMRC will play it. Some think they will only accept 100% and will be happy to make an example of us. Others think they will actually just maximise the pay back, so they'll accept 25% if that's the best offer, rather than get say 10% from a liquidation. 

Others think they will want to be seen to do their bit to save the club and won't even exercise their new rights - which I'd say is unlikely. 

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

5 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

From what I've been able to ascertain, the new rules effectively give HMRC the power of veto on a CVA. They used to just be another creditor, with the same voting rights, so a CVA could be agreed without their consent if the other creditors agreed on a pro-rata voting share. 

The different versions arise from this being the first administration since the rules changed. No one knows how hard ball HMRC will play it. Some think they will only accept 100% and will be happy to make an example of us. Others think they will actually just maximise the pay back, so they'll accept 25% if that's the best offer, rather than get say 10% from a liquidation. 

Others think they will want to be seen to do their bit to save the club and won't even exercise their new rights - which I'd say is unlikely. 

But 100% of nothing is nothing. I expect there's a deal to be done.

[sage]

22 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

Administrators indicated that the HMRC debt is negotiable as they would prefer something rather than nothing if the club goes bump , I presume that’s a fact ? 

I would hope they take off the £8.3m we should have got and the new owner pays the rest. 

[CornwallRam]

Have any details on the redundancies come out? Obviously Steve McClaren has left. I've seen on Twitter that Shane Nicholson has gone, but nothing else.

You have to feel really sorry for the staff. Hopefully we find a buyer quickly and they all get the chance to come back if they want to.

[atherstoneram]

1 minute ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

But 100% of nothing is nothing. I expect there's a deal to be done.

If the club went into liquidation the HMRC would still get something of anything that's left.They won't make a special case out of us because it's a football club otherwise other clubs could then site this situation if they got into trouble. Other businesses have gone into liquidation owing money to HMRC . 

[Pearl Ram]

Well I’ve read twenty staff were made redundant on Tuesday or Wednesday. Pearce, who would have been the first out of the door if I had anything to do with it, attended the game last night. 

How many people that lost their jobs would have been covered by his salary alone ? Makes me puke how he, partly responsible for this mess get to keep his job but those on the coal face as it were are down the road. But then, that’s always been the case hasn’t it ?

[atherstoneram]

8 minutes ago, sage said:

I would hope they take off the £8.3m we should have got and the new owner pays the rest. 

If MM had paid HMRC in the First place we would have got the £8.3m.He may have thought that with winding up orders being suspended until today he could get away with not paying in the hope that he would have sold up and been long gone by now.Regrettably it hasn't worked out that way which is why we owe so much.

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

If MM had paid HMRC in the First place we would have got the £8.3m.He may have thought that with winding up orders being suspended until today he could get away with not paying in the hope that he would have sold up and been long gone by now.Regrettably it hasn't worked out that way which is why we owe so much.

We didn't get the £8.3m loan because we were suspected of breaching regulations. The charge sheet included more than just the HMRC didn't it? If so, I'm not sure we would have eligible if he'd just paid their debt.

[Tamworthram]

31 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

That would depend on what the administrators feel is a good percentage of the amount owed and what the HMRC see as their bottom line.The HMRC are holding all the cards in this situation.

I think they're holding most of the cards but not quite all of them. The administrator could always say the % they are demanding is too high to avoid liquidation.

[atherstoneram]

Just now, Tamworthram said:

I think they're holding most of the cards but not quite all of them. The administrator could always say the % they are demanding is too high to avoid liquidation.

Then there is nothing to stop the HMRC saying take it or leave it.  I wouldn't imagine you accrue a debt of £26m over the last few months.