Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[Crewton]

HMRC still sit behind any Primary Preferential Creditors, which could conceivably include MSD's £17m. If so, I can't see any liquidation realising that kind of sum, so HMRC would probably end up with nothing. There's no guarantee they'll look at it pragmatically of course, but they should do their sums and work out what the treasury would lose from DCFC disappearing in terms of other company liquidations, loss of PAYE, NICS and VAT from all the fallout. 

As Kilroy-Silk might say, they have to decide whether to share, or shaft. 

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Then there is nothing to stop the HMRC saying take it or leave it.  I wouldn't imagine you accrue a debt of £26m over the last few months.

Well there is if the offer made by the administrator is more than they would get if the club went into liquidation.

[AndyinLiverpool]

8 minutes ago, Crewton said:

HMRC still sit behind any Primary Preferential Creditors, which could conceivably include MSD's £17m. If so, I can't see any liquidation realising that kind of sum, so HMRC would probably end up with nothing. There's no guarantee they'll look at it pragmatically of course, but they should do their sums and work out what the treasury would lose from DCFC disappearing in terms of other company liquidations, loss of PAYE, NICS and VAT from all the fallout. 

As Kilroy-Silk might say, they have to decide whether to share, or shaft. 

It's an absolute disgrace that the club has robbed us taxpayers.

[PistoldPete]

47 minutes ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

But 100% of nothing is nothing. I expect there's a deal to be done.

The thing is with Hmrc, if they liquidate the club that means no more Paye from players wages . Which makes no sense , and I as a taxpayer leave alone a Rams fan would not be happy with such a counterproductive stance.

[Crewton]

Just now, AndyinLiverpool said:

It's an absolute disgrace that the club has robbed us taxpayers.

You're right, but I'm angrier about the profiteers who've made millions and, in some cases billions, from the pandemic. And multinational companies who use dodges to avoid paying tax on their profits accrued in this country. It's not DCFC's missed payments that are responsible for the government ending the £20 per week uplift on UC, and it hasn't stopped the government proposing a new yacht for Betty and family. HMRC may still get their money from DCFC but the government show no intention of using it for the good of the country as a whole anyway. 

[atherstoneram]

9 minutes ago, Crewton said:

HMRC still sit behind any Primary Preferential Creditors, which could conceivably include MSD's £17m. If so, I can't see any liquidation realising that kind of sum, so HMRC would probably end up with nothing. There's no guarantee they'll look at it pragmatically of course, but they should do their sums and work out what the treasury would lose from DCFC disappearing in terms of other company liquidations, loss of PAYE, NICS and VAT from all the fallout. 

As Kilroy-Silk might say, they have to decide whether to share, or shaft. 

If you look at other multi chain names which have disappeared from the high streets and the Tens of thousands who have lost their jobs therefore the companies and staff no longer paying PAYE etc (the Arcadia group to use as an example) i would imagine that is a hell of a lot more than what they would lose if Derby finished up in liquidation. If you look at the pragmatic course we have/had an owner who could have paid out of his own pocket if he so wished but chose not to.

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

It's an absolute disgrace that the club has robbed us taxpayers.

Eh? By overpaying players in wages , the club has also been very generous to Hmrc. Until COVID, when they ran out of money to pay the HMRC… along with many other businesses.

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

If you look at other multi chain names which have disappeared from the high streets and the Tens of thousands who have lost their jobs therefore the companies and staff no longer paying PAYE etc (the Arcadia group to use as an example) i would imagine that is a hell of a lot more than what they would lose if Derby finished up in liquidation. If you look at the pragmatic course we have/had an owner who could have paid out of his own pocket if he so wished but chose not to.

There is no comparison between Mel Morris and Philip green they are polar opposites 

[atherstoneram]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

Eh? By overpaying players in wages , the club has also been very generous to Hmrc. Until COVID, when they ran out of money to pay the HMRC… along with many other businesses.

So you are saying the club was trading whilst insolvent. Many other businesses have gone into liquidation.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Sheff Ram said:

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

What article are you referring to? There is a lot of pish on the internet.

[atherstoneram]

Just now, PistoldPete said:

There is no comparison between Mel Morris and Philip green they are polar opposites 

Really,can you explain why after such a statement.

[PistoldPete]

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

So you are saying the club was trading whilst insolvent. Many other businesses have gone into liquidation.

No  I didn’t say that. Hmrc agreed to defer tax during the pandemic.

Edited September 30, 2021 by PistoldPete

[PistoldPete]

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

Really,can you explain why after such a statement.

Philip green extracted large sums from his businesses and then they went bust. Mel Morris put large sums into the rams , so the exact opposite. 

[atherstoneram]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

No problem didn’t say that. Hmrc agreed to defer tax during the pandemic.

Only regarding VAT,nothing else.

[Reggie Greenwood]

30 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Then there is nothing to stop the HMRC saying take it or leave it.  I wouldn't imagine you accrue a debt of £26m over the last few months.

Apart from getting zilch or nearly zilch if club goes bump 

[atherstoneram]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Philip green extracted large sums from his businesses and then they went bust. Mel Morris put large sums into the rams , so the exact opposite. 

But still the same result.

[observer]

3 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

But still the same result.

hardly phillip green is sat on billions in monaco,

 

mel will be licking his wounds, and wishing he could of done better!!!

 

 

in 10 years time we will all have the guilty wish of how he tried his best and it ultimately failed..

nobody can doubt he is a fan and he wont want to be remembered for this

 

[atherstoneram]

Just now, observer said:

hardly phillip green is sat on billions in monaco,

 

mel will be licking his wounds, and wishing he could of done better!!!

 

 

in 10 years time we will all have the guilty wish of how he tried his best and it ultimately failed..

nobody can doubt he is a fan and he wont want to be remembered for this

 

My reply was to the post of how much the treasury would lose if Derby went into liquidation and how much the treasury lost when the Arcadia group went bust.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Sheff Ram said:

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

Hard to imagine why they didn't put any of this in the "teaser document" eh?

?

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Sheff Ram said:

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

It is sobering stuff, but the Administrators did say yesterday that Mel Morris is working proactively with them to complete a deal whereby any new owners get the stadium too as part of the deal.

If the deal amount is c£75m to include the stadium that isn’t too bad a deal for someone with deep pockets, and a reasonable return on investment timescale.

I have been one of Mel Morris’s biggest detractors for some time (early 2016 I was uncomfortable with his stewardship) but if he does do a deal whereby the club is bought by someone credible for somewhere around the same price he paid for it, and the stadium is included in the deal, then I will be pleased to acknowledge there is some honour due. Yes he gambled the club to the edge of existence, and yes he will have left it in a far worse playing state than when he took over (with us most likely consigned to at least one season in League 1) but if he does do that it will be him who will have waved goodbye to all of his £200m+ of investment. I won’t be happy, but I will be somewhat more forgiving, when listening to Jeff Stelling and Kammy informing me next season of a hard earned one nil away win for the Rams at Burton.