Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[PistoldPete]

9 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I never understood why we paid those transfer fees for both Bielik  and Jozwiak because at both points it was clear we needed to cut back strongly yet the fees for both were large - we absolutely could have made money on both of them but the timing seemed so wrong.

With bielik I think we had lost mount tomori and Wilson so needed quality to replace them . We got compo for lampard but yes I agree in hindsight we were overspending . 

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

 As a taxpayer do you think the stance of allowing a tax bill of £26m to accrue is acceptable

If you lose £20 million of revenue but still have contractually to pay £30 million in wages I don’t see how you can exactly avoid building up big debts. 
 

The loss of revenue was caused by Government policy. As a taxpayer I am not happy that the Government has caused that but we risk going into politics which is verboten on this forum .

[AndyinLiverpool]

26 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Derby shut their ground for 15 months which cost them £20 million. To protect the NHS. They don’t owe the country anything.

They owe us tax

[PistoldPete]

Just now, AndyinLiverpool said:

They owe us tax

Government owes Derby £20 million compo for lost revenue , Derby owes Government in tax so they are quits in my book . 

[atherstoneram]

22 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Derby shut their ground for 15 months which cost them £20 million. To protect the NHS. They don’t owe the country anything.

They were ordered to shut their ground but not for 15 months,only 3,after that football resumed and fans paid for and watched by streaming services for which thee clubs would be receiving an income. There were more important things affecting the country than grounds being open for football to be played.

I notice you didn't respond to my answer to your post - as a taxpayer do you agree with the stance taken that the club allowed a debt of £26m to accrue to HMRC

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Government owes Derby £20 million compo for lost revenue , Derby owes Government in tax so they are quits in my book . 

Your book is strange.

How do you imagine it came about that the club avoided its tax obligations? Did they forget? Did they decide they wouldn't pay? Did they say, 'it's not fair, so we won't pay.'?

How does tit-fot-tat usually go with hmrc?

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

They were ordered to shut their ground but not for 15 months,only 3,after that football resumed and fans paid for and watched by streaming services for which thee clubs would be receiving an income. There were more important things affecting the country than grounds being open for football to be played.

I notice you didn't respond to my answer to your post - as a taxpayer do you agree with the stance taken that the club allowed a debt of £26m to accrue to HMRC

As a taxpayer I agree that where the Government prevents you from earning an income it should compensate you fully for your loss and / or defer collecting taxes in recognition of the financial strain it has caused. 
 

 

[PistoldPete]

7 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Your book is strange.

How do you imagine it came about that the club avoided its tax obligations? Did they forget? Did they decide they wouldn't pay? Did they say, 'it's not fair, so we won't pay.'?

How does tit-fot-tat usually go with hmrc?

I think Hmrc didn’t collect taxes in recognition of the COVID situation . And the reason for that was yes in part because the Government recognised the financial strain their policies were causing . 
 

how it comes about when a Company or an individual gets into financial difficulty is they pay bills they have to to avoid further financial disaster. Player wages we know are a good example .. miss those on a regular basis and you lose players , get thrown out of the league or whatever no one would buy the club and Hmrc would get paid nothing. 

to be honest , I am more concerned about shinner Nicholson losing his job than I am Hmrc getting 25 p in the pound or whatever.
 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by PistoldPete

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I think Hmrc didn’t collect taxes in recognition of the COVID situation . And the reason for that was yes in part because the Government recognised the financial strain their policies were causing . 

I got a demand for £600 (estimated) in July. I actually owe £0. In the end, I have sent last year's tax return in early just to make them go away.

[jono]

10 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

They were ordered to shut their ground but not for 15 months,only 3,after that football resumed and fans paid for and watched by streaming services for which thee clubs would be receiving an income. There were more important things affecting the country than grounds being open for football to be played.

I notice you didn't respond to my answer to your post - as a taxpayer do you agree with the stance taken that the club allowed a debt of £26m to accrue to HMRC

So wrong as a statement ! The club didn’t “allow” .. the club failed to pay because it didn’t have funds 

If you want to be pedantic .. then why did the HMRC “allow” the club to continue when owing that sum ? 

This is just another example of the tiresome and oh so common … “it’s not fair” .. “it’s someone’s fault”.   like you can stop the Titanic sinking with an 200 foot breach in its hull …. with an App on a mobile phone. 
 

Poo happens and if it isn’t criminal or dishonest,  then suck it up 

[atherstoneram]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

As a taxpayer I agree that where the Government prevents you from earning an income it should compensate you fully for your loss and / or defer collecting taxes in recognition of the financial strain it has caused. 
 

 

It did defer paying VAT and also suspended winding up orders being issued by the HMRC until today,fans have been back in grounds for nearly a year now.There was also a loan of £8.3M made available to clubs from a finance company via the EFL to help pay HMRC which because of transgressing the rules we couldn't take advantage of. Not all clubs took the loan,only 14 out of 24 clubs i believe.

[atherstoneram]

4 minutes ago, jono said:

So wrong as a statement ! The club didn’t “allow” .. the club failed to pay because it didn’t have funds 

If you want to be pedantic .. then why did the HMRC “allow” the club to continue when owing that sum ? 

This is just another example of the tiresome and oh so common … “it’s not fair” .. “it’s someone’s fault”.   like you can stop the Titanic sinking with an 200 foot breach in its hull …. with an App on a mobile phone. 
 

Poo happens and if it isn’t criminal or dishonest,  then suck it up 

I am in agreement with you,i'm not the one saying "it's not fair" or "it's someone elses fault"

As for the debt owed to HMRC they couldn't do anything about it as winding up orders were suspended until today.

[jono]

44 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

I am in agreement with you,i'm not the one saying "it's not fair" or "it's someone elses fault"

As for the debt owed to HMRC they couldn't do anything about it as winding up orders were suspended until today.

Sorry .. perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that somehow it was the governments “fault” that Derby ran up such a debt and as a taxpayers we should moan about it with a certain political angle directed at the govt  ? 
 

This situation is unique and way beyond what any govt could predict .. a lot of poo happened in the last 2 years and it is most definitely not as a result of party politics.  We got our feet soaked and frozen by the pandemic .. sure, we were wearing flip flops on an outward bound event, which wasn’t a wise choice of footwear but all the same …….. 

[CBRammette]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

I am in agreement with you,i'm not the one saying "it's not fair" or "it's someone elses fault"

As for the debt owed to HMRC they couldn't do anything about it as winding up orders were suspended until today.

They could do various things. Such as discontinuing JRS claim payments if PAYE debts not paid up to what had been agreed. Assume they didnt do this as havent heard about redundancies which would have happened without JRS grants. Tax deferrals agreed could be revoked. However unless I have missed something do we know the exact taxes owed, periods the liabilities relate to or details of any payment plans or any deferrals agreed with HMRC?  

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

It did defer paying VAT and also suspended winding up orders being issued by the HMRC until today,fans have been back in grounds for nearly a year now.There was also a loan of £8.3M made available to clubs from a finance company via the EFL to help pay HMRC which because of transgressing the rules we couldn't take advantage of. Not all clubs took the loan,only 14 out of 24 clubs i believe.

You believe wrong. We were denied the loan by the EFL because we were suspected of breaking the rules, including the stadium sale.  In fact the IDC decided we had not broken that rule, but too late we were denied the loan anyway. Clubs in receipt of parachute money were already getting money from EPL so didn't need the loan. Derby weren't , and defintely needed the loan but were denied the loan by EFL  as extra punishment for crimes we were later found not to have committed.

[PistoldPete]

33 minutes ago, jono said:

Sorry .. perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that somehow it was the governments “fault” that Derby ran up such a debt and as a taxpayers we should moan about it with a certain political angle directed at the govt  ? 
 

This situation is unique and way beyond what any govt could predict .. a lot of poo happened in the last 2 years and it is most definitely not as a result of party politics.  We got our feet soaked and frozen by the pandemic .. sure, we were wearing flip flops on an outward bound event, which wasn’t a wise choice of footwear but all the same …….. 

It isn't a question of it being the Government's fault necessarily, (although many do not agree with lockdowns at all).   But where the Government demands that businesses close down in the wider interests of public health , it is reasonable to expect either compensation from the Government, or some considerable leeway given to tax liabilities for people and businesses that suffer the financial consequences of those closures.

 

Contrast this with Glasgow Rangers, who were wound up by HMRC due to unpaid tax. That wasnt  due to the PAYE tax owing due to lost revenues during a  pandemic but was due to  massive amounts swerved due to dodgy Employee Benefit Trusts. HMRC rightly had no sympathy there. Derby's case is very different though. 

 

 

[Rev]

10 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

It isn't a question of it being the Government's fault necessarily, (although many do not agree with lockdowns at all).   But where the Government demands that businesses close down in the wider interests of public health , it is reasonable to expect either compensation from the Government, or some considerable leeway given to tax liabilities for people and businesses that suffer the financial consequences of those closures.

 

Contrast this with Glasgow Rangers, who were wound up by HMRC due to unpaid tax. That wasnt  due to the PAYE tax owing due to lost revenues during a  pandemic but was due to  massive amounts swerved due to dodgy Employee Benefit Trusts. HMRC rightly had no sympathy there. Derby's case is very different though. 

 

 

Maybe a fair outcome would be to pay what we owed before Covid in full, and a percentage of pandemic related losses to be negotiated.

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, Rev said:

Maybe a fair outcome would be to pay what we owed before Covid in full, and a percentage of pandemic related losses to be negotiated.

A fair outcome will be to pay what we can afford to pay to HMRc and then come out of administration under a new owner so that we can continue to pay HMRC going forward.

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

fans have been back in grounds for nearly a year now

I don't know where you've been living, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't get in Pride Park for a competitive game between 12th March 2020 and 5th August 2021 

[jono]

36 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

It isn't a question of it being the Government's fault necessarily, (although many do not agree with lockdowns at all).   But where the Government demands that businesses close down in the wider interests of public health , it is reasonable to expect either compensation from the Government, or some considerable leeway given to tax liabilities for people and businesses that suffer the financial consequences of those closures.

 

Contrast this with Glasgow Rangers, who were wound up by HMRC due to unpaid tax. That wasnt  due to the PAYE tax owing due to lost revenues during a  pandemic but was due to  massive amounts swerved due to dodgy Employee Benefit Trusts. HMRC rightly had no sympathy there. Derby's case is very different though. 

 

 

It’s an interesting point. Businesses in trouble for a number of reasons. Along comes Covid with a wrecking ball. 
I wonder …. Why was the EFL the one dispensing public money to the needy ? Was the 8.5 mill public money ? If so then The EFL seems to have inserted itself as a middleman between a Govt willing to give aid and Clubs needing it … Who gave the EFL that particular deal ? One wonders what oversight has been placed on the EFL and what gives them the role as life and death arbiter of individual companies financial difficulties in a global pandemic, especially when it’s based on an arcane rule book that wasn’t created for those circumstances ?