Out of sync?

[Nuwtfly]

58 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone

Welcome to the forum @HecMacTod

[nottingram]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone

Nigel Pearson while taking training, 2016

[Mucker1884]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone drone

 

Mel.  Is that you?  👀

[Reggie Greenwood]

4 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Food for thought from a new poster:

In the Covid season 2021 Paul Warne's Rotherham beat Derby County 1-0 at Pride Park (Rotherham possession 35%, Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 237, Derby 429, Rotherham passing accuracy 59% Derby 76%).

In the return fixture Rotherham won 3-0 (Rotherham possession 35% Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 260, Derby 488, Rotherham passing accuracy 57%, derby 77 %).

Fast forward to this season, using FotMob statistics, Paul Warne's Derby County are next to bottom (above Millwall) with 41.3% average possesion and next to bottom (above Millwall) with 244.7 accurate passes per match.

So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics. He is either not interested in or believes he doesn't possess the necessary qualities in his team to play possession football. Fine you may argue, that's his choice as manager. And it is also fine that some supporters (but not all) don't like watching that style of football.

But in a recent interview for Rams TV under 18 coach Danny Maye talks about trying to get a style of play that develops players for the highest level...ready for the Premier League....not only about working hard, pressing but it's about dominating the ball. He goes on the say that they are often reaching 60/65 per cent possession.

The under 18s currently top a league that includes Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool.

What's the point of the academy playing this way if the first team is the complete opposite with a manager seemingly more obsessed with players “gassing out.”

Surely all teams at Derby County, at whatever level, should be consistent in their style of football.

Our local media, hoodwinked by Warne's homespun, folksy, Forest Gump waffle about bobble hats, his dog, his brother, his Benidorm mates, coffee, blah, blah, don't seem interested in asking about why Derby County play this way. Why is there not more emphasis on actually keeping the ball.

The under 21s now include the likes of Cruz Allen, Lennon Wheeldon and Niall McAndrew, all academy products, all now getting international recognition.

If you were their parent or agent, do you think (given the chance that is) their career will advance playing for a side managed by someone whose tactic in some matches is to play Ebou Adams, a whole-hearted and strong tackling individual but with the technical passing skills of a competent League One performer as the most advance midfield close to the strikers and yet the skillful imaginative  Kenzo Goudmijn as the most deep lying holding player despite having scored twice in previous matches.

It's a tactic which has puzzled Radio Derby ex-professionals Eric Steele, Darren Robinson and Malcolm Christie. Me too. Bonkers.

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

Sunderland midfield Dan Neil in an interview about new manager Regis Le Bris said: "He has definitely brought new ideas, new ways of playing, especially in possession.

"I feel like the way we are playing now is a lot more structured. Everybody knows their roles in and out of possession."

A BBC article adds: “There's no longer the 'pass to the attacking players and hope for the best' kind of mindset that seemed prevalent in the club's recent past.”

Sound familiar?

“Le Bris' style of play hinges on his midfield talent - Rigg, Bellingham and Neil - to create triangles of space on the pitch and build into an attack rather than a gung-ho approach.”

The Rams should be congratulated for upgrading their recruitment department, data analysis, and academy set-up.

Is Paul Warne interested or capable of adapting to the challenges ahead? Or will he stick to tested and tried methods which have brought him success in the past.

He deserves praise for getting Derby out of League One (although on his own admission it was a failure not to achieve that at the first attempt) and if he keeps the Rams in the Championship this season then again he will deserve praise.

But David Clowes and Stephen Pearce should already be utilising all the data available to them to ready move on to the next level.

Yawn

[Chester40]

Very well expressed, clear and sensible post.

Just a subject that possibly had been done to death (is Warne tactically weak) in many different forms. Currently, we look decently positioned in the league,  are playing good football... so I've no appetite for the thread.

[HorsforthRam]

3 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Very well expressed, clear and sensible post.

Just a subject that possibly had been done to death (is Warne tactically weak) in many different forms. Currently, we look decently positioned in the league,  are playing good football... so I've no appetite for the thread.

Agree. Quite enjoyed the read. Agree on the D Brown comment. Not sure why he doesn’t get minutes ahead of Collins. 

[Loughborough Ram]

56 minutes ago, HorsforthRam said:

Agree. Quite enjoyed the read. Agree on the D Brown comment. Not sure why he doesn’t get minutes ahead of Collins. 

Because the majority of times Collins comes on, it's to protect a lead and his job is the batter the centre halves and pin them back.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Christ not again.

It's not a fun debate if it's the same thread,endlessly repeated to no end.

So,like the last five identical threads,it's on ignore.

Get behind the team and manager,you might enjoy it.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Some of the points are valid. I don't like how Warne seemingly doesn't care about blooding academy players.

But to expect him to do that and play "better football", while maintaining the results we're currently getting, would be asking for the perfect manager. And that's completely unrealistic in our current position.

There are some things we'd like to change that simply won't change with Warne as manager. He's doing a good job so far, and there's no prospect of him leaving anytime soon, so we may as well stop stressing about it. And the football really hasn't been that bad.

[Highgate]

People who are more familiar with how the youth teams play will be better able to compare them to the first team than me, but it's very hard to argue against the general point that a football club should want to play the same style of football at all age levels.

It's hard enough for a young player to break into the first team without having to adapt to a whole new style of play simultaneously, and the quicker they settle in the better it is for themselves and for the team as a whole. 

If it is true that the first team are playing a completely different style to the underage teams, then that is a genuine worry for the future, regardless of how satisfied we may be with the first team's performances at present. 

[Ambitious]

Possession is a situational statistic, but some managers put more emphasis on it than others. It's not that Warne doesn't want possession, but he places a greater emphasis on other aspects. He is a manager that wants to move the ball forward quickly, he wants players to take risks, he wants to catch teams out of shape. 

Now, possession at an academy level is a lot more important because results are secondary to fundamentals. You have three stages: Foundation Phase (5-11), Youth Development Stage (12-16) and Professional Development (17+). The approach is always going to be factored on keeping the ball, playing out from the back, recycling possession, transitions and rotations that are more structured. 

When you get to the professional level, managers have to take all that information these players have been taught over years and weaponise it - both for and against. 99% of players are comfortable on the ball thanks to the coaching received at academy level, but when results become the focus then it's a completely different game. If we're going to extremes, Southampton have had more possession than Arsenal this season. Swansea have had more possession than Sunderland. When you put too much empahsis on it, my opinion is that it encourages safe, risk-free football that tends to be criticised for being too slow. 

I watched Eiran Cashin nearly break the League One record for the most passes made/played in a 0-0 draw with Shrewsbury under Rosenior - 138 (91.3%) - I can appreciate dominant, possession-based football but it would bring other frustrations. 

[jono]

7 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Food for thought from a new poster:

In the Covid season 2021 Paul Warne's Rotherham beat Derby County 1-0 at Pride Park (Rotherham possession 35%, Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 237, Derby 429, Rotherham passing accuracy 59% Derby 76%).

In the return fixture Rotherham won 3-0 (Rotherham possession 35% Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 260, Derby 488, Rotherham passing accuracy 57%, derby 77 %).

Fast forward to this season, using FotMob statistics, Paul Warne's Derby County are next to bottom (above Millwall) with 41.3% average possesion and next to bottom (above Millwall) with 244.7 accurate passes per match.

So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics. He is either not interested in or believes he doesn't possess the necessary qualities in his team to play possession football. Fine you may argue, that's his choice as manager. And it is also fine that some supporters (but not all) don't like watching that style of football.

But in a recent interview for Rams TV under 18 coach Danny Maye talks about trying to get a style of play that develops players for the highest level...ready for the Premier League....not only about working hard, pressing but it's about dominating the ball. He goes on the say that they are often reaching 60/65 per cent possession.

The under 18s currently top a league that includes Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool.

What's the point of the academy playing this way if the first team is the complete opposite with a manager seemingly more obsessed with players “gassing out.”

Surely all teams at Derby County, at whatever level, should be consistent in their style of football.

Our local media, hoodwinked by Warne's homespun, folksy, Forest Gump waffle about bobble hats, his dog, his brother, his Benidorm mates, coffee, blah, blah, don't seem interested in asking about why Derby County play this way. Why is there not more emphasis on actually keeping the ball.

The under 21s now include the likes of Cruz Allen, Lennon Wheeldon and Niall McAndrew, all academy products, all now getting international recognition.

If you were their parent or agent, do you think (given the chance that is) their career will advance playing for a side managed by someone whose tactic in some matches is to play Ebou Adams, a whole-hearted and strong tackling individual but with the technical passing skills of a competent League One performer as the most advance midfield close to the strikers and yet the skillful imaginative  Kenzo Goudmijn as the most deep lying holding player despite having scored twice in previous matches.

It's a tactic which has puzzled Radio Derby ex-professionals Eric Steele, Darren Robinson and Malcolm Christie. Me too. Bonkers.

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

Sunderland midfield Dan Neil in an interview about new manager Regis Le Bris said: "He has definitely brought new ideas, new ways of playing, especially in possession.

"I feel like the way we are playing now is a lot more structured. Everybody knows their roles in and out of possession."

A BBC article adds: “There's no longer the 'pass to the attacking players and hope for the best' kind of mindset that seemed prevalent in the club's recent past.”

Sound familiar?

“Le Bris' style of play hinges on his midfield talent - Rigg, Bellingham and Neil - to create triangles of space on the pitch and build into an attack rather than a gung-ho approach.”

The Rams should be congratulated for upgrading their recruitment department, data analysis, and academy set-up.

Is Paul Warne interested or capable of adapting to the challenges ahead? Or will he stick to tested and tried methods which have brought him success in the past.

He deserves praise for getting Derby out of League One (although on his own admission it was a failure not to achieve that at the first attempt) and if he keeps the Rams in the Championship this season then again he will deserve praise.

But David Clowes and Stephen Pearce should already be utilising all the data available to them to ready move on to the next level.

 If Warne gets us to the next level then surely he will have adapted. But that’s not your point is it ? You’re suggesting that on the basis of possession figures our football has not evolved since league 1. I disagree, having seen our home matches this season along with highlights of our away games it is clear to me that Warne has adapted .. not because he is a genius but because the technical level of our players has gone up a notch so he can try other things. We now play the ball through the middle and mix it with different approaches. It isn’t perfect, but given the standard and type of players we have I suggest he is getting the most out of them. I most definitely don’t want to go back to a Cocu / Clement style of trying to make Championship players do PL stuff when they can’t do it technically on a consistent basis and it ends up being as boring as the proverbial (and risky too)  If in a couple of seasons time Warne is still here and we get a shot at the PL then surely he would deserve to be given another opportunity to adapt again ? 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Ambitious said:

Possession is a situational statistic, but some managers put more emphasis on it than others. It's not that Warne doesn't want possession, but he places a greater emphasis on other aspects. He is a manager that wants to move the ball forward quickly, he wants players to take risks, he wants to catch teams out of shape. 

Now, possession at an academy level is a lot more important because results are secondary to fundamentals. You have three stages: Foundation Phase (5-11), Youth Development Stage (12-16) and Professional Development (17+). The approach is always going to be factored on keeping the ball, playing out from the back, recycling possession, transitions and rotations that are more structured. 

When you get to the professional level, managers have to take all that information these players have been taught over years and weaponise it - both for and against. 99% of players are comfortable on the ball thanks to the coaching received at academy level, but when results become the focus then it's a completely different game. If we're going to extremes, Southampton have had more possession than Arsenal this season. Swansea have had more possession than Sunderland. When you put too much empahsis on it, my opinion is that it encourages safe, risk-free football that tends to be criticised for being too slow. 

I watched Eiran Cashin nearly break the League One record for the most passes made/played in a 0-0 draw with Shrewsbury under Rosenior - 138 (91.3%) - I can appreciate dominant, possession-based football but it would bring other frustrations. 

Post of the month. Thread over!

[ariotofmyown]

The possession stat is really simplistic, yet all sorts on conclusions are drawn from it.

It's hugely impacted by both the opposition style and the state of the game. It also give no indication to the area on the pitch on where the possesion takes place.

There seems to be some moral purity to having high possession and vice versa. It's great if you want a job at Bayern based on little success, not so great if the players in your team are worse than the oppo but gift regular chances and goals.

 

[jono]

Somewhere over the rainbow there’s a manager out there who, with a limited budget, who can produce a team with a 50% win rate that has camaraderie, spirit and a bit of skill; giving its all for him and the supporters.Who could it be ? Oh ! wait a minute. 
 

Pass me the red shoes Dorothy; last seen gathering dust under Jim Radcliffe’s desk at Old Trafford 

[angieram]

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

The possession stat is really simplistic, yet all sorts on conclusions are drawn from it.

It's hugely impacted by both the opposition style and the state of the game. It also give no indication to the area on the pitch on where the possesion takes place.

There seems to be some moral purity to having high possession and vice versa. It's great if you want a job at Bayern based on little success, not so great if the players in your team are worse than the oppo but gift regular chances and goals.

 

Lovely little dig there!

[Crewton]

I only ever see highlights from the Academy teams, and there might be plenty of passing football played, but I've also noticed allot of their goals come from dead ball kicks, balls played over the top of the defence, forcing mistakes from high pressing and from playing with width. 

BTW also, Jason Knight left because his then international manager threatened to drop him if he didn't get a move to the championship. I wonder if they're still speaking?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Somewhere over the rainbow there’s a manager out there who, with a limited budget, who can produce a team with a 50% win rate that has camaraderie, spirit and a bit of skill; giving its all for him and the supporters.Who could it be ? Oh ! wait a minute. 
 

Pass me the red shoes Dorothy; last seen gathering dust under Jim Radcliffe’s desk at Old Trafford 

I'd trade all that for a 50% possession rate. It's why we all fell in love with football.

[ariotofmyown]

I'm praying we go behind early in the next match to increase our posession. Earlyish goals are proving a disaster for us. Warne needs to address this asap.

[Jourdan]

Personally I find that the job Warne is doing looks more impressive by the day. It’s a shame some of our fans are too preoccupied with the idea that the grass will always be greener and the butter will always be creamier to really sit back and appreciate the work he is doing.

When you are a manager working on a limited budget, which is currently only comparable to 8-12 sides in the division, you can’t have it all. At this level especially there is going to be a trade off. We are a work in progress and every season Warne is trying to advance the team in line with the club’s principles and within the parameters of good financial health. It’s no easy task.

Personally I think he deserves plenty of credit. To think where we were 12 months ago and see where we are now, the difference is night and day. Why can’t some of our fans enjoy it and give credit for a job well done rather than surmising it’s all coming to a predictably screeching halt?

I just think some of our fans are idealistic in the extreme and they are expecting the club to run against seasoned competitors while it’s still very much at the crawling stage. I don’t think some grasp how sound and well oiled a machine you have to be to have a playing style running through the club, regular Academy integration into the first team, and a manager who can successfully implement an attacking, possession centric style of play and get competitive results. It’s not easy to achieve from a position of strength and stability, never mind a position of recovery which is what we’re in.

The OP pointed to Le Bris at Sunderland as a shining example of a club getting it right, one when the season is only one fifth of the way through and two when he is their seventh permanent manager in five years and the culmination of years of investment and tinkering from their European owners.

Are we advocating going back to a pattern of twisting enough times to the point that you finally land upon something that works? Are we in a position where we can gamble to that level? Didn’t we already try that and fall spectacularly short under Mel Morris?

Should we be looking ahead? There’s nothing to suggest we are not. Clowes and the key people at the club appear to be aligned and setting things in motion, so why is it assumed Warne is just keeping the seat warm for some maverick? Warne is proving people wrong as it stands and if he continues in the job, the gauntlet will be laid down once again for him to show his growth and development as a manager and a coach. Personally, I am happy to see him prove himself.