Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[ilkleyram]

The two things we must do - or at least Wayne must - is to say that while we can mathematically stay up then that is what we must try to do. Sport occasionally throws up strange results. It’s one of its beauties. 
The second thing is to learn the lesson of our 11 point season. We went into the next in a bad way. League 1 is a tough, tough league and we need to go into it in as good a place as we can. That means continuing to do as well as possible, not chucking the kids in but giving the ones that can cope the opportunity to develop their skills and career with positive experiences, not losing regularly. We play the best team we can, every match, and sort out next season when it comes.

And we fans not only need to continue to support the team as we (largely) have done, we also need to keep reminding the world of the incompetence of the EFL and their minions even when our garden is rosy again. As it will be.

[Ram-Alf]

21 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Correct - fundamentally, how does it help the integrity of the league to have one team with nothing to play for from mid-November?

Yes, we can play for pride, but we'll be hard pushed to keep that motivation up for 5 months. 

Nothing about pride, Players have a responsability to play their best on the day of the game, I'd love to shaft the EFL and all their serfs, But we and DCFC have to show when we're down you can kick as much as you like, But we can kick harder when push comes to shove.

[r_wilcockson]

3 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

The two things we must do - or at least Wayne must - is to say that while we can mathematically stay up then that is what we must try to do. Sport occasionally throws up strange results. It’s one of its beauties. 
The second thing is to learn the lesson of our 11 point season. We went into the next in a bad way. League 1 is a tough, tough league and we need to go into it in as good a place as we can. That means continuing to do as well as possible, not chucking the kids in but giving the ones that can cope the opportunity to develop their skills and career with positive experiences, not losing regularly. We play the best team we can, every match, and sort out next season when it comes.

And we fans not only need to continue to support the team as we (largely) have done, we also need to keep reminding the world of the incompetence of the EFL and their minions even when our garden is rosy again. As it will be.

Whilst it's virtually impossible that we still stay up, Reading for example have a 9 point deduction incoming, which brings the gap down to 16 points. There could be other teams as well which get hit? Have to keep going for it until mathematically impossible as suggested. 

[SirBrian]

Lets hope this is the end and the club can start to rebuild, and a new owner  will be in place soon, sure they will. Started watching the Rams when Tim Ward was the boss, he bought Kevin Hector then shortly after sacked for Sir Brian Clough, what wonderful times.

Certainly not supporting Mel for have no idea what as gone on but some of the things he has said would not surprise me if he does not take a private prosicution against the EFL and certain individuals, now it is all over and then we will find out the truth, one way or the other.

 

[sawley_ram]

What frustrates me possibly more than the completely unfair and targeted sanctions is the way it's reported in the media. Most outsiders following this will just conclude in their minds that Derby cheated the system and deserved all of this, which is factually untrue as so often pointed out with raw figures and assessments on here, e.g. the figure put on the club's ground's value which was deemed to be acceptable until the the repeated EFL appeals finally agreed with them and they got their own way.

Anyway whatever happens I'll always love our club - Derby County - and support them no matter what. We have a great history (richer than most clubs in England!), a huge fanbase a future no matter what. Wearing my shirt with pride every weekend. COYR!

Edited November 16, 2021 by sawley_ram

[Ramarena]

Well the EFL just torpedoed the integrity of the division. I there’s effectively 23 teams now. 

[Woodley Ram]

Ok, lets move on bring in a new owner ASAP and plan for L1. I have to admit that I was shocked with the amount of overspend, a lot more than we have been led to believe. Given the amount we cannot complain with the deduction.

[Chester40]

Well, there clearly was a huge leak in the whole process. 

Administrators need to speak asap because it looks like they surrendered and have rubber stamped relegation,  least they can do is explain why.

[Gaspode]

5 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

Ok, lets move on bring in a new owner ASAP and plan for L1. I have to admit that I was shocked with the amount of overspend, a lot more than we have been led to believe. Given the amount we cannot complain with the deduction.

Only if those figures are correct - various folk on twatter suggesting that those numbers have applied the same loss repeatedly over 3 seasons so the total quoted is far higher than it should be. No idea if that is correct (hopefully one of the accountancy folk on here can clarify....).

My take is that the admins have told the EFL that they want closure asap so they can sell the club - the EFL have replied that the only way they'd accept that is by hitting us as hard as they can (effectively guaranteeing relegation) - basically blackmailing the admins to accept the punishment or else have the whole sorry saga drag out to the point we get liquidated.....a thoroughly crappy way to behave for an organisation that then has the temerity to issue a statement saying they want to help the club move forward.....

[Crewton]

1 minute ago, Chester40 said:

Well, there clearly was a huge leak in the whole process. 

Administrators need to speak asap because it looks like they surrendered and have rubber stamped relegation,  least they can do is explain why.

I agree. I imagine they did it because the EFL made it clear that they wouldn't sanction any takeover unless the financial charges were dealt with, though I doubt the administrators will be able to say that because the EFL love leaks but hate transparency. 

[Flying Fokker]

32 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I suppose that's that then. 9 points for something undeserved and all but confirms we head to league 1. If this saga confirms anything is that once the EFL have decided you've done something wrong they will do everything they possibly can to make you bleed (as long as you are still under their jurisdiction). At least though it's done now and we can now actually start plotting our future.

From my point of view I think we should not only be thinking about league 1 next season but how do we recover long term and how do we go about our business going forwards. Because on the hand if we plan well I think we can bounce back pretty quickly but on the other hand if we don't we will be in for a long spell in league 1 and an even longer recovery. We need to essentially think about how we can use our time in league 1 to help develop us to a stronger place going forwards long term.

Personally I think one of the biggest mistakes we could make is selling off players to buy a raft of experienced league one pros in order to get a quick bounce back promotion. The problem with a plan like that it's by no means a guaranteed success as it requires players gelling and they won't be so much better than the league they are in to dig you out on raw quality, also even if you get promoted you are left with a squad that won't be properly equipped to take the club forwards from that point.

What I think is the best long term plan is essentially lean on the academy and then judiciously (but minimally) supplementing that core with signings. We have a lot of talent in the academy and by circumstance a lot of players who look they could be ready for first team action by leaning on these you already have a high degree squad cohesion, more talent than you would typically get from league 1 signings but most importantly a platform from which you can progress as a club. What I mean by this is the players will develop over time getting better with the club and can eventually fetch decent price tags helping fuel a further rise.

With that in mind I think we need to do a few things pretty quickly (besides the obvious of getting a new owner):

• I think you need to gauge how committed Rooney is to a long term plan that will involve at least one season in league 1, I think he's done enough to be given more time but if he's not 100% committed is best we part ways now.
• Formulate a longer term plan of not only how do we get out of league 1 but how do we get from league 1 to the end goal of being an established premier league team.
• Do everything we can to keep a hold of the academy talent (I'm including the likes of Bird, Knight, Sibley and Buchanan in this) and play a team mostly consisting of them week in, week out so they can develop. 
• Any senior pro who wants to leave should be allowed to at the earliest possible moment and the only ones retained should be those who both really want to stay and understand that their game time for the rest of the season is secondary to overall squad development. Those with short term contracts should be allowed to have them run down, those who have high wages should be sold at the earliest opportunity.
• Completely reassess how we go about scouting and signings
• Assess gaps in the new look of the squad and begin to scout candidates for signings, if this can be done before January make them then but don't rush into anything just yet. 

It's imperative we use the rest of the season wisely in order to hit the ground running.

That is a great post...

One point of contention:

Just wondering why Derby will want to pay Rooney's wages in L1?   Is he on peanuts?  Or just a monkey?

 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Carnero said:

@Ghost of Clough

What would these individual penalty amounts come in at on the points scale that they use?

The Club has now submitted Revised P&S Calculations which will show that the Club’s Adjusted Earnings Before Tax in the relevant Reporting Periods is as follows: 22.1 3 years up to and including financial year 2016/17 - £46.76m loss, i.e. £7.76m in excess of the Upper Loss Threshold; 22.2 3 years up to and including financial year 2017/18 - £28.12m loss i.e. £10.88m under the Upper Loss Threshold; 22.3 3 years up to and including financial year 2018/19 - £50.72m loss i.e. £11.72m in excess of the Upper Loss Threshold; and 22.4 4 years up to and including financial year 2020/21 - £40.96m loss i.e. £1.96m in excess of the Upper Loss Threshold.

I was afraid they'd hit us for the 3 years to 2017. Didn't think they would as I thought we would have got charged with failing that period first rather than 2018... which incidentally we didn't fail based on those figures you've given.

2017 - £7.76m = 6 points
2018 - under limit
2019 - £11.72m = 12 points
2020 - No figures?
2021 - £1.96m = 3 points

Total = 21 points

[alexxxxx]

Would love to hear @The Baron's view on the final outcome as he is thought as (rightfully or wrongly) as the catalyst for this charge by the efl. 

My view is that the decision notice and the statement by the EFL shows that the agreed decision has some glaring holes in it. For example the £30M additional money couldn't be counted as income for reasons unexplained. 

The fact parry has said it is important to respect the 'principals' of FFP on behalf of other clubs (tactic admission that the rules are not well written). 

The fact that the agreement could only be made if Derby withdrew the admin appeal (these are of course technically unrelated breaches) - suggests that Derby have a reasonable case but efl unwilling to work with us on it properly. 

The fact that the efl state that the restated accounts were never actually submitted in August even though at the time they said they had - my belief is that they were submitted but in fact they weren't thought to be by the efl as being compliant with FRS102 and now the club are being asked to 'agree' that they weren't without that actually being tested in the open.

The reference to straight line amortisation in the agreement where it doesn't actually say that in the regulations (and it could have done). 

The agreement doesn't state why the breaches were only noticed years later.

The fact that the club and the efl have to agree on any further statement means that we'll never ever actually find out what happened behind the scenes. 

Seems to me this outcome is basically due to the fact that the efl have all the time in the world and Derby are running out of money. 

The EFLs actions have been vindictive and Mel/Pearce have not covered their backs enough by making things clear enough when the accounts were submitted to make our case watertight. 

INDEPENDENT REGULATOR FOR EPL, EFL AND NATIONAL LEAGUE NOW. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by alexxxxx

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I was afraid they'd hit us for the 3 years to 2017. Didn't think they would as I thought we would have got charged with failing that period first rather than 2018... which incidentally we didn't fail based on those figures you've given.

2017 - £7.76m = 6 points
2018 - under limit
2019 - £11.72m = 12 points
2020 - No figures?
2021 - £1.96m = 3 points

Total = 21 points

So, @Ghost of Clough, I look for your posts because they seem the most authoritative.

Are you saying we've escaped lightly? Or that the EFL have gone easy on us?

(I hasten to add that I'm sure that's not your opinion - but compared with what they could have imposed?)

[Red Ram]

1 hour ago, Carnero said:

@Ghost of Clough

What would these individual penalty amounts come in at on the points scale that they use?

The Club has now submitted Revised P&S Calculations which will show that the Club’s Adjusted Earnings Before Tax in the relevant Reporting Periods is as follows: 22.1 3 years up to and including financial year 2016/17 - £46.76m loss, i.e. £7.76m in excess of the Upper Loss Threshold; 22.2 3 years up to and including financial year 2017/18 - £28.12m loss i.e. £10.88m under the Upper Loss Threshold; 22.3 3 years up to and including financial year 2018/19 - £50.72m loss i.e. £11.72m in excess of the Upper Loss Threshold; and 22.4 4 years up to and including financial year 2020/21 - £40.96m loss i.e. £1.96m in excess of the Upper Loss Threshold.

This is why we've had a 9 point deduction. Blame the EFL if it makes you feel better. Pretend it's a vendetta if you really want to play the victim. Delude yourself that we would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling Steve Gibson if it helps.

But it's all complete BS. Derby County is a member of the EFL. The EFL is a rules based organisation. We repeatedly broke the rules. We are gulity as charged and have been sanctioned accordingly. Yes it really is that simple.

The only people responsible are the people who were running the club. They gambled with your club's future. They lost. End of.

Time to move on. Time to rebuild under new owners in League One.

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Red Ram

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

34 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

Ok, lets move on bring in a new owner ASAP and plan for L1. I have to admit that I was shocked with the amount of overspend, a lot more than we have been led to believe. Given the amount we cannot complain with the deduction.

We can complain when other clubs with more significant breaches get the same, without the added baggage of two years worth of EFL restrictions.

Our treatment has been so massively disproportionate by comparison.

Edited November 16, 2021 by JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

So, @Ghost of Clough, I look for your posts because they seem the most authoritative.

Are you saying we've escaped lightly? Or that the EFL have gone easy on us?

(I hasten to add that I'm sure that's not your opinion - but compared with what they could have imposed?)

Lightly based on those figures

[Flying Fokker]

56 minutes ago, JPRamFan said:

Can't believe what I have just read and the sanctions imposed against us. These parasites want to bury us, as our treatment compared to other clubs is completely disproportionate. The EFL have slowly destroyed my love for football over the past two years, and now we are almost certainly relegated to league 1 now. ?

Each club's fans has totally different experience.  Most fans think they have been shafted from all directions.  Not saying you have not been dealt a horrible blow.  I just hope you keep abreast of the rules.  Some clubs get additional -10 pts due to coming out of admin when failing to agree with creditors.  

[Norman]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Lets hold fire until we see what happens with the stadium.

 

The least he can do is give us back the stadium. And I won't be thanking him for it, either. 

The guy has ruined us. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Norman

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Lightly based on those figures

So we need to know if they're the actual figures.