Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[vonwright]

31 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

My point is quite a simple and obvious one. In the real world, if someone makes a general statement to the press,  what they are not doing is making some sort of formal undertaking to do something extraordinary. It’s quite simple. Unless it doesn’t fit your agenda 

You’ve confused this by saying what you think he ought to have done or said. You’re entitled to your view on that. That’s a different debate 

Fair enough. I don't know exactly what he said, and you are right - I'm not that interested in to what extent it could be considered a 'formal undertaking', as opposed to just part of a pattern of giving fans a false sense of security. 

[islandram]

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The EFL will have to bargain with Steve Gibson and Kieran Maguire to make sure whatever the punishment is, its to their satisfaction.

rubbish Maguire and Gibson have no say efl are dealing with administrators not Morris now. we need to move on from this paper talk innuendo/clickbait rubbish and get our club sorted and as no one on here knows the full details why keep making things up does it help no. only thing that helps club is getting behind Wayne the team the club feel sorry for trusted hard working staff that lose jobs and look to future . don't whinge and whine about new prospective owners. i look at this way Middlesboro is still an awful place with or without Gibson. and we should applaud Wayne for dipping into his own pocket to help out. 

[GboroRam]

I am disappointed that Mel hasn't committed to tightening the belt. If instead of increasing debts he'd forced a reduction in outgoings, the 1.5m quid a month he's putting in would drop. Surely the end game for all championship clubs has to be running costs below income? 

He could continue to fund the running costs until a buyer is found if there's a clear end to that cost. That's what I was presuming he meant when he said he'd fund us until a buyer was found. Each transfer window would mean a controlled reduction of higher cost players. But no, the costs haven't been addressed. 

If we were looking for a buyer, start by getting the balance sheet in order. Stop chasing the premiership dream. We gambled to the point of lunacy. 

[Woodley Ram]

11 minutes ago, islandram said:

rubbish Maguire and Gibson have no say efl are dealing with administrators not Morris now. we need to move on from this paper talk innuendo/clickbait rubbish and get our club sorted and as no one on here knows the full details why keep making things up does it help no. only thing that helps club is getting behind Wayne the team the club feel sorry for trusted hard working staff that lose jobs and look to future . don't whinge and whine about new prospective owners. i look at this way Middlesboro is still an awful place with or without Gibson. and we should applaud Wayne for dipping into his own pocket to help out. 

The EFL think we (the administrators) might appeal and I think we should. Covid is a factor and if we can show that the £8.5m would have kept us out of administration we will make a decent case for a reduction. They (EFL) said that Wigan appealed but were unsuccesful. I think with Covid our is a little different and a stronger case. Maybe they can deducte 6 points and give 6 for any other issues and leave us be.

[Woodley Ram]

1 minute ago, GboroRam said:

I am disappointed that Mel hasn't committed to tightening the belt. If instead of increasing debts he'd forced a reduction in outgoings, the 1.5m quid a month he's putting in would drop. Surely the end game for all championship clubs has to be running costs below income? 

He could continue to fund the running costs until a buyer is found if there's a clear end to that cost. That's what I was presuming he meant when he said he'd fund us until a buyer was found. Each transfer window would mean a controlled reduction of higher cost players. But no, the costs haven't been addressed. 

If we were looking for a buyer, start by getting the balance sheet in order. Stop chasing the premiership dream. We gambled to the point of lunacy. 

There has been a dramatic reduction in the wage bill over the last couple of years so they have addressed spending. however the horse has bolted with the money already been spent leaving large debts 

[Reggie Greenwood]

9 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

if he had decided to pay all the debt I don’t think we’d be in administration. 
What Hoskin said I think was that MM had agree to waive all of his own claims against the club 

That’s what I meant ??

[G STAR RAM]

14 hours ago, Oldben said:

Maguire addressed Derby's recent appointment of administrators due to their financial difficulties, focusing on the club's debts.

In his words, “the estimates I've been provided range from low to mid-twenty [millions] of what is owed to the tax authorities.” 

Your football debts are valued at £10 million.

After paying the first £35 million, a quarter of the remaining obligations, estimated at £5 million to £10 million, must be paid.

“And finally Mel Morris. 

Mel Morris has now lent Derby County approximately £100 million. 

If he wants 25% of that, the administrators will have to sell Derby County for £60 million for a team in League One that

doesn't own its stadium. 

So where we are now is quite concerning.”

on top of which efl are looking to hit Derby with another load of points next year, when Derby are very likely to be in league one.

I'm calling BS on this.

Given that at 30 June 2018, Morris (or his Gellaw company) owed the club £80m, that would mean that in 3 years he has pumped £180m into the club.

Certainly doesn't tie in with his statement about having to write a cheque for £1.5 to £2m every month.

£100m may be what he has put in over the last 3 years but then he would still owe us £80m for the stadium if this has not been netted off.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

26 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

The EFL think we (the administrators) might appeal and I think we should. Covid is a factor and if we can show that the £8.5m would have kept us out of administration we will make a decent case for a reduction. They (EFL) said that Wigan appealed but were unsuccesful. I think with Covid our is a little different and a stronger case. Maybe they can deducte 6 points and give 6 for any other issues and leave us be.

No chance an appeal would work. If COVID was the sole reason were in administration it might have done, but COVID isnt the sole reason.

It'd be a waste of money to attempt it in my opinion.

[Woodley Ram]

4 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

No chance an appeal would work. If COVID was the sole reason were in administration it might have done, but COVID isnt the sole reason.

It'd be a waste of money to attempt it in my opinion.

Its worth a try. Covid has had an effect so maybe get a reduction. I suppose the question is would we be in administration if we had played to 26,000 every week? if not then appeal

Edited September 25, 2021 by Woodley Ram
more narrative

[PistoldPete]

28 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I am disappointed that Mel hasn't committed to tightening the belt. If instead of increasing debts he'd forced a reduction in outgoings, the 1.5m quid a month he's putting in would drop. Surely the end game for all championship clubs has to be running costs below income? 

He could continue to fund the running costs until a buyer is found if there's a clear end to that cost. That's what I was presuming he meant when he said he'd fund us until a buyer was found. Each transfer window would mean a controlled reduction of higher cost players. But no, the costs haven't been addressed. 

If we were looking for a buyer, start by getting the balance sheet in order. Stop chasing the premiership dream. We gambled to the point of lunacy. 

Player wages have dropped from £47 million in 2017-18 to just over £10 million now.. so there has actually been a massive tightening  of the belt. Unfortunately revenue has also dropped mainly due to covid.

Season ticket money this year is just a carry forward from last year so only match day tickets providing attendance money. Thats why we are still losing money. 

 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

2 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

Its worth a try. Covid has had an effect so maybe get a reduction. I suppose the question is would we be in administration if we had played to 26,000 every week? if not then appeal

The EFL could also reasonably ask 'Would you be in administration had the club not been run so shambolically?'. I suspect the answer to that is no as well.

COVID hasn't sent anyone else under, at least not yet. 

[Oldben]

Football365 story "Luton are proof that clubs can survive huge points deductions", interesting article comparison for Derby

[PistoldPete]

5 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

No chance an appeal would work. If COVID was the sole reason were in administration it might have done, but COVID isnt the sole reason.

It'd be a waste of money to attempt it in my opinion.

The lawyers will say you have to look at proximate causes of an event, not the historic chain of events that preceded it like historic overspending.  And covid , along with the decision to call in the administrator was indeed the final straw. 

To win a force majeure case the administrators would have to show that the owner did everything he could once covid had struck to avoid admin. Well he was  trying very hard to find new buyers, was denied a loan from the EFL to help with covid liabilities, so instead arranged emergency funding from MSD.. but it was MSD in the end who pulled the plug. What more do you think he could have done in that situation?  Sell players? Given we only avoided relegation by one point do you think that would have helped our financial position if w had sold our best players? And our best player was out long term injured anyway. 

 

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, Charlotte Ram said:

... On talk sport tango man asked the administrator if the end of the moratorium on the HMRC issuing winding up orders was the reason that the club was put into admin so quickly last Friday and surprise surprise the moratorium ends next Thursday so that explains the rush as the HMRC would have made a dash to the high court for that winding up order

...

alll interesting points to my mind as these facts explain the process so far

That is an interesting point I've not seen mentioned or emphasised before, thanks. What would be the difference between admin before a winding up order (we had one Jan. 2020 too) and admin after, or isn't the last possible? I presume the end of HNRC moratorium on winding up orders is the reason that MSD had been assessing the situation for 3 weeks previously (I think was said)?

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Player wages have dropped from £47 million in 2017-18 to just over £10 million now.. so there has actually been a massive tightening  of the belt. Unfortunately revenue has also dropped mainly due to covid.

Season ticket money this year is just a carry forward from last year so only match day tickets providing attendance money. Thats why we are still losing money. 

Yes the wages belt has been tightened - but how, in an unplanned way!? The squad has been left massively unbalanced and as can be seen now we are suffering because of that lack of planning.

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

9 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

The EFL could also reasonably ask 'Would you be in administration had the club not been run so shambolically?'. I suspect the answer to that is no as well.

COVID hasn't sent anyone else under, at least not yet. 

But the question should be “Would you have been able to service your current liabilities with £20m extra revenue?”, the answer to that is undoubtedly yes. 

 

[Chester40]

Can't believe Covid, with no supporters in the ground for months on end can be seen as anything other than an unprecedented event. 

12 points for administration,  the owner gone, huge personal investment down the drain, tiny squad,  embargoes, near certain relegation...not sure what lesson there is left to learn either..?

[atherstoneram]

10 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Can't believe Covid, with no supporters in the ground for months on end can be seen as anything other than an unprecedented event. 

12 points for administration,  the owner gone, huge personal investment down the drain, tiny squad,  embargoes, near certain relegation...not sure what lesson there is left to learn either..?

Yes it is an unprecedented event,but that didn't just apply to us it was across the board, other clubs haven't been forced into administration by it.

[atherstoneram]

21 minutes ago, TooFarInToTurnRed said:

But the question should be “Would you have been able to service your current liabilities with £20m extra revenue?”, the answer to that is undoubtedly yes. 

 

How can you be so sure,that is a bold statement to make.

[Crewton]

5 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Yes it is an unprecedented event,but that didn't just apply to us it was across the board, other clubs haven't been forced into administration by it.

An earthquake is a Force Majeure event, but the impact on a wooden structure is likely to be much more severe than on a building that has been designed to withstand it. 

That difference doesn't change the nature of the event. One building collapses, the other doesn't.