Paul Warne

[Caerphilly Ram]

21 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I think it's increasingly harder to. The debate that can and should be had on here about Warne seems to just get swallowed up now by the extremes on both sides, who both come across as whiny and unreasonable as the other. 

It doesn't really seem like you can make any kind of "Anti-Warne" comment (I'm loathed to use that term) without the extreme of the other side jumping on you immediately. I'm sure it probably feels like that the other way around, too! Any praise of him gets jumped on by the other side; the same usual suspects etc etc. 

For what it's worth all your points are really fair - I don't really disagree with you on a lot them.

My counter argument is just this: the fear going into this season was whether Warne can cut it at this level. His time at Rotherham suggests he can't. There were loads of really fair and good arguments made as to why this was unfair to judge him on (particularly by @Ambitious)

But if you are going to judge Warne on his time so far with us, including this season, you could reasonably say that it looks like old habits are going to repeat themselves. It looks like the League One Specialist (well earned) is reverting to type a bit and turning us into an underdog, siege-mentality side that is going to try and defend for 90 minutes. 

I’ve always struggled to properly articulate my stance on here without it being an essay, a voice note function would be ideal at times…. But here goes… I will generalise in my assessment here but it’s not meant personally to any one poster or viewpoint. I have always professed my stance to be one of patience rather than specifically Pro-Warne.

The main crux that I see with those who have concerns with Warne and those who have less concerns seems to revolve around a couple of things broadly linked to personal preference and expectations. 

Style of play - some want to see a certain type of football which seems mostly to be a possession based approach akin to that which Steve Mac employed. Some people are less bothered by “how” we play. That difference in preference and expectations leads to disagreements around Warne.

Development of youth - the club spends a lot on the academy and has had recent success developing young players, the idea of “one of our own” being successful with a Ram on their chest is pretty much a universally popular concept. Warne’s alleged reluctance to use young players is a seemingly valid concern for some… but there are hints that he’s more willing to with the attention Dajaune Brown has been getting and it could just possibly be that prior to the likes of Brown and Robinson he didn’t think there were many other viable options to use. Whatever the rationale for the previous decisions around academy players the noise from the decision makers at the club is all very academy centric and we are seeing a slight change in approach with the loaning out of prospects to aid their development, whether Warne does more to incorporate them is yet to be seen. I suspect this is one point that’s never going to be fully reconciled by any party as ultimately it’s Warne’s job to coach the first team to succeed and the academy’s to produce the talent to feed into that, there’s always going to be a disconnect between what we fans want and the practicality of realising it, but yes he needs to be better. 

Warne’s profile in the game - aka the “waRnE hAs nO pUlL” argument. Realistically Warne is of a lesser status on the map of football than the likes of Lampard and Rooney recently, McClaren and Smith before him and many others. He’s not as fashionable as some would like is essentially how I distill this, he’s a bit of a daft bloke with an outlying character and it doesn’t sit well with people. But the argument he has no pull is in direct contradiction to the fact we have recruited plenty of players during his tenure, perhaps the correct phrase is “Warne has less pull than some of his peers”.

His league one expert/championship relegation history - Your own post and many others make reference to his relegations with Rotherham as a massive negative and the counter argument from many is his relative success with promotions. There’s clearly some sort of disconnect, is it budgetary? Is it tactical? Is it mentality? We’re finding out, and it’ll take more than 3 games of the season for any proof to be verified, but not allowing the time for that makes no sense to me. People say we can’t be cut adrift….well we’re not, not yet. Relegation will be devastating… Will it? We’d potentially be a bit of a yo-yo club for a season much like Norwich or WBA with the prem previously. Go down with stronger finances, some key players, recruit again and bounce back up. Wouldn’t be ideal, would be bruising to the collective ego, would NOT be the end of the world as some profess it. It would be another 46 game season following the club in a different league, that’s it, no apocalypse or the like. 

I have long accepted Warne isn’t ever going to be universally welcomed by the fans, he delivered a pretty entertaining promotion last season for me and there are plenty of people lining up with their “yeah buts…”, that’s up to them. I choose to live in the moment, I choose to be positive and optimistic as others have mentioned. I don’t want to live my life thinking the worst will happen in 2 years because Warne didn’t put a 17 year old on the bench away at Watford that one time. He’s the manager for now, he’s got a job to do and if he doesn’t do it in line with the expectations of his employer he’s going to leave and someone else gets a go. Accepting that situation makes it far easier for me to go, “okay Warne and co, show us what you’ve got” without agonising over it. I only ever look to encourage others to do the same. I understand some people need to get their frustrations with him off their chests, fine, and this IS the space to do it (ideally constructively as many do) but the way some people feel about Warne on here and other places online often strikes me as surreal, as though he’s done them some sort of personal wrong. He’s a ultimately just a bloke with questionable humour doing his best to help the club we support succeed, those who don’t think he can do it fair enough, but at least try and find some positives because they are there. 

[trappatoni]

I'd say relegation would be devastating (in football terms).  Last time there were special circumstances that brought about a togetherness - plus it was a novelty.   If we went down again there would be neither of those.    There's  no saying we'd come back in 1-2 seasons - we got up in a very weak year and hardly pissed it.  Being a Prem-Champ yo-yo club is one thing but yo-yoing between the champ and L1 is another - it'd call into question Clowes' running of the club - not his commitment but his decision making. 

[Tamworthram]

21 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

I'd say relegation would be devastating (in football terms).  Last time there were special circumstances that brought about a togetherness - plus it was a novelty.   If we went down again there would be neither of those.    There's  no saying we'd come back in 1-2 seasons - we got up in a very weak year and hardly pissed it.  Being a Prem-Champ yo-yo club is one thing but yo-yoing between the champ and L1 is another - it'd call into question Clowes' running of the club - not his commitment but his decision making. 

It would be a blow but I wouldn’t necessarily describe it as devastating. I also think there would still be a togetherness amongst the core of loyal supporters even if that core was reduced. Regarding it being a very week year, try telling that to Bolton, Barnsley and Peterborough fans. Given the position we were in, and what we’d been through, I’m not sure any sensible person ever expected us to pxxx it.

Anyway, what’s with all this doom and gloom? It’s not even the end of August yet but we’re contemplating the crisis if the team get relegated.

[vonwright]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Style of play - some want to see a certain type of football which seems mostly to be a possession based approach akin to that which Steve Mac employed. Some people are less bothered by “how” we play. That difference in preference and expectations leads to disagreements around Warne.

Not sure about this. You make it sound like a purely aesthetic thing: 'Some people don't like this style.' I think the core disagreement is about whether we play a style which will deliver the results we want.

As far as I can see, people with doubts about Warne worry that his style of football will bring diminishing returns as we move up the pyramid, and our opponents play better football and make fewer mistakes. So recruiting and training for this style of football isn't a recipe for medium- or long-term success.

In the short-term they worry that it will put us under too much pressure, while also giving us too few ways to score goals. 

They might be wrong about either of these things. But it isn't just a matter of taste.

Edited August 26 by vonwright

[Caerphilly Ram]

3 minutes ago, vonwright said:

Not sure about this. You make it sound like a purely aesthetic thing: 'Some people don't like this style.' I think the core disagreement is about whether we play a style which will deliver the results we want.

As far as I can see, people with doubts about Warne worry that his style of football will bring diminishing returns as we move up the pyramid, and our opponents play better football and make fewer mistakes. So recruiting and training for this style of football isn't a recipe for medium- or long-term success.

In the short-term they worry that it will put us under too much pressure, while also giving us too few ways to score goals. 

They might be wrong about either of these things. But it isn't just a matter of taste.

Fair enough. I did say at the start of my essay that there would be generalisations in it, it wasn’t meant as a deep dive into the finer details of the specific concerns people have. I was just highlighting in response to @Nuwtfly that there are differences in opinion and people are entitled to their opinions whilst explaining why I choose to be positive and optimistic, mainly because I’m not worrying about the medium to long term. I do my best to be in the present moment, and/or the very near future, tomorrow is promised to no one and all that. I’m entitled to feel that way and express my optimism on here in the same way those of you with concerns are allowed to share them. 

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

28 minutes ago, vonwright said:

Not sure about this. You make it sound like a purely aesthetic thing: 'Some people don't like this style.' I think the core disagreement is about whether we play a style which will deliver the results we want.

As far as I can see, people with doubts about Warne worry that his style of football will bring diminishing returns as we move up the pyramid, and our opponents play better football and make fewer mistakes. So recruiting and training for this style of football isn't a recipe for medium- or long-term success.

In the short-term they worry that it will put us under too much pressure, while also giving us too few ways to score goals. 

They might be wrong about either of these things. But it isn't just a matter of taste.

Also, I didn’t mean it to be purely an aesthetic thing. I didn’t go into the “why”, just saying that people have different preferences and expectations. The reasons for those different expectations and preferences can and will vary from person to person.

[i-Ram]

2 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I’ve always struggled to properly articulate my stance on here without it being an essay, a voice note function would be ideal at times…. But here goes… I will generalise in my assessment here but it’s not meant personally to any one poster or viewpoint. I have always professed my stance to be one of patience rather than specifically Pro-Warne.

The main crux that I see with those who have concerns with Warne and those who have less concerns seems to revolve around a couple of things broadly linked to personal preference and expectations. 

Style of play - some want to see a certain type of football which seems mostly to be a possession based approach akin to that which Steve Mac employed. Some people are less bothered by “how” we play. That difference in preference and expectations leads to disagreements around Warne.

Development of youth - the club spends a lot on the academy and has had recent success developing young players, the idea of “one of our own” being successful with a Ram on their chest is pretty much a universally popular concept. Warne’s alleged reluctance to use young players is a seemingly valid concern for some… but there are hints that he’s more willing to with the attention Dajaune Brown has been getting and it could just possibly be that prior to the likes of Brown and Robinson he didn’t think there were many other viable options to use. Whatever the rationale for the previous decisions around academy players the noise from the decision makers at the club is all very academy centric and we are seeing a slight change in approach with the loaning out of prospects to aid their development, whether Warne does more to incorporate them is yet to be seen. I suspect this is one point that’s never going to be fully reconciled by any party as ultimately it’s Warne’s job to coach the first team to succeed and the academy’s to produce the talent to feed into that, there’s always going to be a disconnect between what we fans want and the practicality of realising it, but yes he needs to be better. 

Warne’s profile in the game - aka the “waRnE hAs nO pUlL” argument. Realistically Warne is of a lesser status on the map of football than the likes of Lampard and Rooney recently, McClaren and Smith before him and many others. He’s not as fashionable as some would like is essentially how I distill this, he’s a bit of a daft bloke with an outlying character and it doesn’t sit well with people. But the argument he has no pull is in direct contradiction to the fact we have recruited plenty of players during his tenure, perhaps the correct phrase is “Warne has less pull than some of his peers”.

His league one expert/championship relegation history - Your own post and many others make reference to his relegations with Rotherham as a massive negative and the counter argument from many is his relative success with promotions. There’s clearly some sort of disconnect, is it budgetary? Is it tactical? Is it mentality? We’re finding out, and it’ll take more than 3 games of the season for any proof to be verified, but not allowing the time for that makes no sense to me. People say we can’t be cut adrift….well we’re not, not yet. Relegation will be devastating… Will it? We’d potentially be a bit of a yo-yo club for a season much like Norwich or WBA with the prem previously. Go down with stronger finances, some key players, recruit again and bounce back up. Wouldn’t be ideal, would be bruising to the collective ego, would NOT be the end of the world as some profess it. It would be another 46 game season following the club in a different league, that’s it, no apocalypse or the like. 

I have long accepted Warne isn’t ever going to be universally welcomed by the fans, he delivered a pretty entertaining promotion last season for me and there are plenty of people lining up with their “yeah buts…”, that’s up to them. I choose to live in the moment, I choose to be positive and optimistic as others have mentioned. I don’t want to live my life thinking the worst will happen in 2 years because Warne didn’t put a 17 year old on the bench away at Watford that one time. He’s the manager for now, he’s got a job to do and if he doesn’t do it in line with the expectations of his employer he’s going to leave and someone else gets a go. Accepting that situation makes it far easier for me to go, “okay Warne and co, show us what you’ve got” without agonising over it. I only ever look to encourage others to do the same. I understand some people need to get their frustrations with him off their chests, fine, and this IS the space to do it (ideally constructively as many do) but the way some people feel about Warne on here and other places online often strikes me as surreal, as though he’s done them some sort of personal wrong. He’s a ultimately just a bloke with questionable humour doing his best to help the club we support succeed, those who don’t think he can do it fair enough, but at least try and find some positives because they are there. 

An essay should be like a skirt. Long enough to cover everything but short enough to keep your attention. I didn’t get to the third paragraph sorry.

[Caerphilly Ram]

15 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

An essay should be like a skirt. Long enough to cover everything but short enough to keep your attention. I didn’t get to the third paragraph sorry.

Good to know 

[Comrade 86]

4 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Good to know 

Keep posting exactly as you always have, Caerphilly. Not that it should matter, but clearly most find you erudite, informative and fair.

[Ambitious]

2 hours ago, trappatoni said:

I'd say relegation would be devastating (in football terms).  Last time there were special circumstances that brought about a togetherness - plus it was a novelty.   If we went down again there would be neither of those.    There's  no saying we'd come back in 1-2 seasons - we got up in a very weak year and hardly pissed it.  Being a Prem-Champ yo-yo club is one thing but yo-yoing between the champ and L1 is another - it'd call into question Clowes' running of the club - not his commitment but his decision making. 

The budget and playing squad appears to be very much bottom 6 in the division by almost ever metric. We are, rightly, expected to be down there this season. Call Clowes’ ownership all you want, ultimately he was the only person willing to ensure we continued being a football club.

Saying that, I understand your view, share the frustration to a point, but this is the reality now. I don’t want to Clowes to feel anymore burdened than he already has. Realistically, unless there is an increased investment then another stint in League One is always possible. 

[bcnram]

13 hours ago, Kathcairns said:

But he wouldnt have signed  if that was the case dont you think.

I am 100% certain you are correct. Sometimes though, posters write something to get a smile (even if it is only themselves). 😊😊

 

[Crewton]

I think I've spotted another narrative popular among Warne critics. : League 1 last year was one of the weakest in recent seasons (despite the fact that both favourites Bolton and perennial promotion winners Peterborough finished behind us) but we still only 'scraped' promotion playing 'ugly' football and averaging 2 points a game (club record points & away wins, most home points garnered in the EFL, biggest goal difference).

Unless there's an accepted metric for measuring the relative quality of leagues in different seasons, this seems to be an entirely specious argument.

 

[On the Ram Page]

13 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I’ve always struggled to properly articulate my stance on here without it being an essay, a voice note function would be ideal at times…. But here goes… I will generalise in my assessment here but it’s not meant personally to any one poster or viewpoint. I have always professed my stance to be one of patience rather than specifically Pro-Warne.

The main crux that I see with those who have concerns with Warne and those who have less concerns seems to revolve around a couple of things broadly linked to personal preference and expectations. 

Style of play - some want to see a certain type of football which seems mostly to be a possession based approach akin to that which Steve Mac employed. Some people are less bothered by “how” we play. That difference in preference and expectations leads to disagreements around Warne.

Development of youth - the club spends a lot on the academy and has had recent success developing young players, the idea of “one of our own” being successful with a Ram on their chest is pretty much a universally popular concept. Warne’s alleged reluctance to use young players is a seemingly valid concern for some… but there are hints that he’s more willing to with the attention Dajaune Brown has been getting and it could just possibly be that prior to the likes of Brown and Robinson he didn’t think there were many other viable options to use. Whatever the rationale for the previous decisions around academy players the noise from the decision makers at the club is all very academy centric and we are seeing a slight change in approach with the loaning out of prospects to aid their development, whether Warne does more to incorporate them is yet to be seen. I suspect this is one point that’s never going to be fully reconciled by any party as ultimately it’s Warne’s job to coach the first team to succeed and the academy’s to produce the talent to feed into that, there’s always going to be a disconnect between what we fans want and the practicality of realising it, but yes he needs to be better. 

Warne’s profile in the game - aka the “waRnE hAs nO pUlL” argument. Realistically Warne is of a lesser status on the map of football than the likes of Lampard and Rooney recently, McClaren and Smith before him and many others. He’s not as fashionable as some would like is essentially how I distill this, he’s a bit of a daft bloke with an outlying character and it doesn’t sit well with people. But the argument he has no pull is in direct contradiction to the fact we have recruited plenty of players during his tenure, perhaps the correct phrase is “Warne has less pull than some of his peers”.

His league one expert/championship relegation history - Your own post and many others make reference to his relegations with Rotherham as a massive negative and the counter argument from many is his relative success with promotions. There’s clearly some sort of disconnect, is it budgetary? Is it tactical? Is it mentality? We’re finding out, and it’ll take more than 3 games of the season for any proof to be verified, but not allowing the time for that makes no sense to me. People say we can’t be cut adrift….well we’re not, not yet. Relegation will be devastating… Will it? We’d potentially be a bit of a yo-yo club for a season much like Norwich or WBA with the prem previously. Go down with stronger finances, some key players, recruit again and bounce back up. Wouldn’t be ideal, would be bruising to the collective ego, would NOT be the end of the world as some profess it. It would be another 46 game season following the club in a different league, that’s it, no apocalypse or the like. 

I have long accepted Warne isn’t ever going to be universally welcomed by the fans, he delivered a pretty entertaining promotion last season for me and there are plenty of people lining up with their “yeah buts…”, that’s up to them. I choose to live in the moment, I choose to be positive and optimistic as others have mentioned. I don’t want to live my life thinking the worst will happen in 2 years because Warne didn’t put a 17 year old on the bench away at Watford that one time. He’s the manager for now, he’s got a job to do and if he doesn’t do it in line with the expectations of his employer he’s going to leave and someone else gets a go. Accepting that situation makes it far easier for me to go, “okay Warne and co, show us what you’ve got” without agonising over it. I only ever look to encourage others to do the same. I understand some people need to get their frustrations with him off their chests, fine, and this IS the space to do it (ideally constructively as many do) but the way some people feel about Warne on here and other places online often strikes me as surreal, as though he’s done them some sort of personal wrong. He’s a ultimately just a bloke with questionable humour doing his best to help the club we support succeed, those who don’t think he can do it fair enough, but at least try and find some positives because they are there. 

Excellent post, even if some can’t be bothered to read it in full. Show the balance which some clearly don’t have.

[FlyBritishMidland]

22 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I’ve always struggled to properly articulate my stance on here without it being an essay, a voice note function would be ideal at times…. But here goes… I will generalise in my assessment here but it’s not meant personally to any one poster or viewpoint. I have always professed my stance to be one of patience rather than specifically Pro-Warne.

The main crux that I see with those who have concerns with Warne and those who have less concerns seems to revolve around a couple of things broadly linked to personal preference and expectations. 

Style of play - some want to see a certain type of football which seems mostly to be a possession based approach akin to that which Steve Mac employed. Some people are less bothered by “how” we play. That difference in preference and expectations leads to disagreements around Warne.

Development of youth - the club spends a lot on the academy and has had recent success developing young players, the idea of “one of our own” being successful with a Ram on their chest is pretty much a universally popular concept. Warne’s alleged reluctance to use young players is a seemingly valid concern for some… but there are hints that he’s more willing to with the attention Dajaune Brown has been getting and it could just possibly be that prior to the likes of Brown and Robinson he didn’t think there were many other viable options to use. Whatever the rationale for the previous decisions around academy players the noise from the decision makers at the club is all very academy centric and we are seeing a slight change in approach with the loaning out of prospects to aid their development, whether Warne does more to incorporate them is yet to be seen. I suspect this is one point that’s never going to be fully reconciled by any party as ultimately it’s Warne’s job to coach the first team to succeed and the academy’s to produce the talent to feed into that, there’s always going to be a disconnect between what we fans want and the practicality of realising it, but yes he needs to be better. 

Warne’s profile in the game - aka the “waRnE hAs nO pUlL” argument. Realistically Warne is of a lesser status on the map of football than the likes of Lampard and Rooney recently, McClaren and Smith before him and many others. He’s not as fashionable as some would like is essentially how I distill this, he’s a bit of a daft bloke with an outlying character and it doesn’t sit well with people. But the argument he has no pull is in direct contradiction to the fact we have recruited plenty of players during his tenure, perhaps the correct phrase is “Warne has less pull than some of his peers”.

His league one expert/championship relegation history - Your own post and many others make reference to his relegations with Rotherham as a massive negative and the counter argument from many is his relative success with promotions. There’s clearly some sort of disconnect, is it budgetary? Is it tactical? Is it mentality? We’re finding out, and it’ll take more than 3 games of the season for any proof to be verified, but not allowing the time for that makes no sense to me. People say we can’t be cut adrift….well we’re not, not yet. Relegation will be devastating… Will it? We’d potentially be a bit of a yo-yo club for a season much like Norwich or WBA with the prem previously. Go down with stronger finances, some key players, recruit again and bounce back up. Wouldn’t be ideal, would be bruising to the collective ego, would NOT be the end of the world as some profess it. It would be another 46 game season following the club in a different league, that’s it, no apocalypse or the like. 

I have long accepted Warne isn’t ever going to be universally welcomed by the fans, he delivered a pretty entertaining promotion last season for me and there are plenty of people lining up with their “yeah buts…”, that’s up to them. I choose to live in the moment, I choose to be positive and optimistic as others have mentioned. I don’t want to live my life thinking the worst will happen in 2 years because Warne didn’t put a 17 year old on the bench away at Watford that one time. He’s the manager for now, he’s got a job to do and if he doesn’t do it in line with the expectations of his employer he’s going to leave and someone else gets a go. Accepting that situation makes it far easier for me to go, “okay Warne and co, show us what you’ve got” without agonising over it. I only ever look to encourage others to do the same. I understand some people need to get their frustrations with him off their chests, fine, and this IS the space to do it (ideally constructively as many do) but the way some people feel about Warne on here and other places online often strikes me as surreal, as though he’s done them some sort of personal wrong. He’s a ultimately just a bloke with questionable humour doing his best to help the club we support succeed, those who don’t think he can do it fair enough, but at least try and find some positives because they are there. 

Excellent post.  I agree about patience.  Sometimes you have to move slower to move quicker.  I still believe it will take us a while to get to fully recover from admin, whether competing financially, size/quality of squad or bringing youth through.  And we’re best doing it in a structured, controlled manner.  That may seem like it takes a while but if we’re moving in the right direction, then that’s fine.

I don’t get why PW gets all the blame for the lack of youth/academy prospects breaking through.  The academy was pretty much decimated by admin, just when it was at the point of really producing.  I think that’s set us back about 5 years.  Also, it won’t just be PW’s decision.  I think Matt Hale will have big part to play.  Every youngster will have a development and I’m sure PW and MH are in regular discussions and they’ll be looking at if a player is ready technically, physically and mentally.  It’ll be joint decision.

I liken the manager to a Head of Department in a business.  If they’re looking to promote someone, it will be done in consultation with their wider team taking into account a number of factors. This is no different.  And ultimately, the Head of Department, like a football manager, carry’s the can of it all goes pear shaped.

[ram59]

With regards to bringing young players through into the first team, they need to be of the calibre to cope with that step up. 

We were very fortunate that we had a great crop of youngsters who were good enough during the last few years, but in the 50+ years that I've been watching Derby, that is by far the best and largest crop of youngsters to progress to the first team over a relatively short period of time. We are now back to a situation not too dissimilar to a majority of those 50+ years.

Warne has shown with 2 of his loan signings that he's not frightened to put youngsters into the first team, if he feels that they're ready for it.

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, ram59 said:

With regards to bringing young players through into the first team, they need to be of the calibre to cope with that step up. 

We were very fortunate that we had a great crop of youngsters who were good enough during the last few years, but in the 50+ years that I've been watching Derby, that is by far the best and largest crop of youngsters to progress to the first team over a relatively short period of time. We are now back to a situation not too dissimilar to a majority of those 50+ years.

Warne has shown with 2 of his loan signings that he's not frightened to put youngsters into the first team, if he feels that they're ready for it.

That is the sticking point isn't it. It seems he is only willing to risk youngsters that he feels have experience. It doesn't seem to be enough that Brown has probably more experience of league football than Tawanda. How will he know that Brown can compete at this level if he doesn't trust him with an opportunity?

Edited August 27 by RoyMac5

[The Running Man]

Can't believe Warne told Collo, Jackson, and Forsyth to miss those penalties! Terrible tactical decision!

[Nuwtfly]

16 minutes ago, The Running Man said:

Can't believe Warne told Collo, Jackson, and Forsyth to miss those penalties! Terrible tactical decision!

How did you find the 90 minutes before the penalties?

[tinman]

I like the guy and would probably like to work for him. But my god the football’s still rubbish. 

[Alan Ramage 4 EVA]

7 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

How did you find the 90 minutes before the penalties?

NULLIYFYING ? (All the football was taken out of the football match)

Edited August 27 by Alan Ramage 4 EVA