Paul Warne

[Crewton]

11 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

There seems to be an increasing narrative on here that Warne's last stint in the Championship was a success & somehow negates the 3 relegations he'd previously suffered at that level.

Below is the Championship table as at 17th September 2022 - 5 days before he left Rotherham for Derby. Rotherham were in 8th place & had won 3 out of 9 games - all at home. A decent start sure but reality is they were still only 4 points above the bottom 3 & very far from demonstrating they would have been able to survive that full season under Warne.

To show just how this table is misleading in predicting performance over a full season, Wigan were only one point behind Rotherham at that stage but were ultimately comfortably relegated (even if they hadn't been deducted 6 points). Same situation with Reading who sit in 3rd at this stage with 18 points but only accrued another 32 points on the pitch from the last 36 games. On the flip side, Coventry sit bottom here but ended up in the playoff final.

I would also ponder the question that if Rotherham had looked so strong at that point, why would he have considered dropping a division & not wait for an offer from a bigger fellow Championship club? That's what Steven Schumacher did this year swapping another small yo/yo club in Plymouth for a better resourced gig at Stoke.

You can only judge him on where he left them - 1 point outside the play-offs with a game in hand - which is fairer than counting his first relegation with Rotherham as entirely his fault.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I only really do this stuff because some of the criticisms of Warne are so obtuse, like the one I'm responding to. 

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Chester40 said:

I agree with your sentiments and you raise an interesting point.  I think with what we had available. ..he picked the right team. And in hindsight we were f***ing terrible.  

So where does that leave us.

Scratching my head. I think when it's a battle with teams who come onto us, or when our players are allowed to do what they want, they are good individual players, who work hard and for this level we have better than average skill levels and that generally sees us through. When we come up against teams who set up to negate us we have simple plans that if unsuccessful can unravel and then we look really ordinary,  lacking in runs/movement/passing that give us good opportunities to score. We start to force the same passes more and more, overhit them, become desperate with decision making and run into blind alleys as no one is making any different runs. 

That probably is a management issue? Not giving them the structure where players overlap,  pop up in different positions,  beat their man with a 1-2.... Cashin's long diagonal ball is as revolutionary as it gets. Constantly heading down the wing to two out or form players instead of turning inside and releasing the passes that Smith made to NML was noticeable on Tue. 

Earlier in the season IMO we weren't as poor as lots of fans were making out. We have forced our way to 2nd so Warne deserves a chance to see it through,  but our poor performances are getting worse which is massively worrying as he should be getting a handle on where things need to change and it feels like the opposite. 

I don't understand how professionals could look so clueless, abject and unable to do the basics. They were clearly trying but they appear too rigid and uninspired which is the coaching side of things that appears to be at fault??

Anyway..I'm just waffling and waffling on and clearing my brain of the huge frustration I felt on Tue.. before going again tomorrow.

Tis the life of a Derby fan.

I always try to strip away the dressing and focus on what I see. Had we taken any of the 3 or 4 gilt edged opportunities we carved out in the first 40, I think conversations on here would be rather different. As someone else said, fine margins. The second half I thought saw an emboldened Wycombe and I don't think that would have been the case were they 2 or 3 down. Likewise, when NML blasts the ball over the sticks, or CBT fumbles a sitter, can we seriously suggest that these are tactical or coaching deficiencies. With the amount of experienced players we had on the park, calmer heads should have prevailed IMO, though none of this negates the view that at times, PW has clearly got it wrong.

I've not reiterated my sense of it recently, as a pet hate of mine is posters who relentlessly post the same material, but whilst I support Warne currently (likewise the playing roster), I opposed his appointment and can also see how we'd likely need a very different formula to prosper were we to secure promotion. I have enjoyed some performances, Pompey only a game back, I thought was a fantastic game between two sides playing good attacking football, despite the atrocious conditions, but I'm not blind to the occasions where we've looked all over the place either. My view though, is that we are just a L1 side after all, despite being 'massive' and perhaps these inconsistencies come with the territory.

[rammieib]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

How come they weren't in his final part season at Rotherham?

I'm referring to us.... have you seen us play recently.

[LeedsCityRam]

34 minutes ago, Crewton said:

You can only judge him on where he left them - 1 point outside the play-offs with a game in hand - which is fairer than counting his first relegation with Rotherham as entirely his fault.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I only really do this stuff because some of the criticisms of Warne are so obtuse, like the one I'm responding to. 

I'm not sure anyone has said his first relegation was entirely his fault. What responsibility do you apportion to Paul Jewell for 2007/08 out of interest?

I've said it was a decent start - what I object to is people using it as evidence that he was or was likely to be a success in the Championship that season as a result of that 9 game sample & using that as a counterweight to the other 120 games he managed at that level.

35 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Also 4 points from third, with a game in hand.

Also true but the point was that the league table is misleading to qualify as a success. 

Edited April 12 by LeedsCityRam

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Also true but the point was that the league table is misleading to qualify as a success. 

Apologies if I've misunderstood your point, but surely a league table encompassing 46 games is THE most accurate measure of success. What other metric is less misleading? it frustrates me that when teams finish above us it's always because they deserved to over the course of the season, but somehow this same rationale does not apply to us. IMO, if we do secure an autos slot, it's absolutely because we deserved it and by the same token, if we don't, then we clearly won't have. 

[Chester40]

5 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Apologies if I've misunderstood your point, but surely a league table encompassing 46 games is THE most accurate measure of success. What other metric is less misleading? it frustrates me that when teams finish above us it's always because they deserved to over the course of the season, but somehow this same rationale does not apply to us. IMO, if we do secure an autos slot, it's absolutely because we deserved it and by the same token, if we don't, then we clearly won't have. 

What about a league table after 9 games which I think was his point?

Regardless I'm not one to think past performances are the 'be all'..look at Schteve, shocking at times and a legend with us! 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

So manager of the month twice in one season,second in the league,best goal difference,fantastic home and away crowds every single week...and yet,the usual suspects think that clowes will sack him 😂

I do wonder just how many of them actually go to games or even watch the on TV rather than just reading the scores at the end of every match and making "decisions" based on that or their sycophants on here.

Edited April 12 by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong

[maxjam]

I remember listening to Pep Guardiola not long after he joined Man City explaining that it was his job to get the team up the pitch and into shooting positions - you rely on the players to do the rest. 

Two fairly insipid 0-0 draws against Northampton and Wycombe could potentially be the difference late in the season between finishing in the autos/playoffs but we created more than enough chances to comfortably win both.  Waghorn blazing over the bar and CBT somehow managing to fall over the ball early in both games could have set us on the path to comfortable victories.  Surely non other than the most ardent PW hater can surely say that those misses were anything other than individual errors. 

Whilst I'd agree it wasn't pretty and become more laborious the longer they went on, if our players had put their boots on the right feet we'd have won both games in the first half. 

Ah well, I think most people said 3/4 wins would probably be enough before Wycombe.  Nothing has changed imo other than its now 3/3 wins (and yes I know technically we're relying on a topsy-turvy season continuing to be topsy-turvy for it to be enough.)

COYR

 

[Anag Ram]

Just now, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

So manager of the month twice in one season,second in the league,best goal difference,fantastic home and away crowds every single week...and yet,the usual suspects think that clowes will sack him 😂

I do wonder just how many of them actually go to games or even watch the on TV rather than just reading the scores at the end of every match and making "decisions" based on that.

Boo!

Useless tasser. 

And all that with a bunch of (if you believe the forum) useless players.

He’s not the Messiah. He’s just a very naughty boy.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

There seems to be an increasing narrative on here that Warne's last stint in the Championship was a success & somehow negates the 3 relegations he'd previously suffered at that level.

Below is the Championship table as at 17th September 2022 - 5 days before he left Rotherham for Derby. Rotherham were in 8th place & had won 3 out of 9 games - all at home. A decent start sure but reality is they were still only 4 points above the bottom 3 & very far from demonstrating they would have been able to survive that full season under Warne.

To show just how this table is misleading in predicting performance over a full season, Wigan were only one point behind Rotherham at that stage but were ultimately comfortably relegated (even if they hadn't been deducted 6 points). Same situation with Reading who sit in 3rd at this stage with 18 points but only accrued another 32 points on the pitch from the last 36 games. On the flip side, Coventry sit bottom here but ended up in the playoff final.

I would also ponder the question that if Rotherham had looked so strong at that point, why would he have considered dropping a division & not wait for an offer from a bigger fellow Championship club? That's what Steven Schumacher did this year swapping another small yo/yo club in Plymouth for a better resourced gig at Stoke.

It’s a relatively valid point but if you’re going to highlight how close they were to the relegation zone, in the interests of balance, you can’t ignore the fact that they were only one point off the play off places with a game in hand. 
 

As you say the reality is, same with LR, it was way too early in the season to form an opinion as to whether he/they were doing well or not.

 

[G STAR RAM]

41 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I'm referring to us.... have you seen us play recently.

Yes.

Do you think if we get promoted to the Championship we will be using the same players? The ones that have all come through the academy or have been free signings?

[Rich84]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

There seems to be an increasing narrative on here that Warne's last stint in the Championship was a success & somehow negates the 3 relegations he'd previously suffered at that level.

Below is the Championship table as at 17th September 2022 - 5 days before he left Rotherham for Derby. Rotherham were in 8th place & had won 3 out of 9 games - all at home. A decent start sure but reality is they were still only 4 points above the bottom 3 & very far from demonstrating they would have been able to survive that full season under Warne.

To show just how this table is misleading in predicting performance over a full season, Wigan were only one point behind Rotherham at that stage but were ultimately comfortably relegated (even if they hadn't been deducted 6 points). Same situation with Reading who sit in 3rd at this stage with 18 points but only accrued another 32 points on the pitch from the last 36 games. On the flip side, Coventry sit bottom here but ended up in the playoff final.

I would also ponder the question that if Rotherham had looked so strong at that point, why would he have considered dropping a division & not wait for an offer from a bigger fellow Championship club? That's what Steven Schumacher did this year swapping another small yo/yo club in Plymouth for a better resourced gig at Stoke.

So, it's easy to make selective stats suit an argument, as others have pointed out in previous posts, but also, 9 games in and lost only 1, the same as Sheff Utd and Burnley who both got promoted at the end of the season, only 4 points above relegation - but had a game in hand, and the fact there were 13 other teams between them and the bottom 3 should be ignored? 

Reality is, Warne leaving Rotherham probably instigated a loss of form, and if it is OK to speculate Rosenior would have done equally as well as Warne at Derby then it's also reasonable to speculate that Warne would have had a decent season woth Rotherham if he'd not left for us.

[Comrade 86]

12 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

What about a league table after 9 games which I think was his point?

Regardless I'm not one to think past performances are the 'be all'..look at Schteve, shocking at times and a legend with us! 

@LeedsCityRam if this is the case then apologies as I thought your comment was in reference to the status quo and not Rosenior's reign. I too was massively frustrated when he was moved on as it struck me that we were just beginning to play some decent stuff. Did we not dismantle Wycombe in his last game? Irony overload, if so.

I also seem to recall you and I, among others, being taken to task (most often by the forum's most prolific poster who now wants us to believe she was in favour of Rosenior staying!) for suggesting that the style of play we would see under Warne would not necessarily please the masses. How quickly some forget! 

[LeedsCityRam]

23 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Apologies if I've misunderstood your point, but surely a league table encompassing 46 games is THE most accurate measure of success. What other metric is less misleading? it frustrates me that when teams finish above us it's always because they deserved to over the course of the season, but somehow this same rationale does not apply to us. IMO, if we do secure an autos slot, it's absolutely because we deserved it and by the same token, if we don't, then we clearly won't have. 

Totally agree, if we finish 2nd this season then we will have deserved to. My posts weren't aimed at his performance in charge of Derby this season, just the 9 game stint Warne had at Rotherham at the start of the 22/23 season & how a couple of posters were using that small sample to evidence him being successful in the Championship in preference to the two full 46 game seasons where he was in charge & they were relegated.

 

10 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

It’s a relatively valid point but if you’re going to highlight how close they were to the relegation zone, in the interests of balance, you can’t ignore the fact that they were only one point off the play off places with a game in hand. 
 

As you say the reality is, same with LR, it was way too early in the season to form an opinion as to whether he/they were doing well or not.

 

As I replied to Foreveram, it is undeniably true they were also close to the top 6 but the point I was making was that the sample size is too small to be considered success/that Warne had definitively shown he could be successful in the Championship. As you quite rightly say, exactly the same applies to Liam Rosenior - you can't say that Derby being in 7th upon his departure meant he was successful here or indeed, likely to continue in that vein. Both were decent starts, nothing more & with particular respect to Warne, his previous 120 games at Championship level have to be the barometer by which his ability to manage at that level must be judged.

[LeedsCityRam]

36 minutes ago, Rich84 said:

So, it's easy to make selective stats suit an argument, as others have pointed out in previous posts, but also, 9 games in and lost only 1, the same as Sheff Utd and Burnley who both got promoted at the end of the season, only 4 points above relegation - but had a game in hand, and the fact there were 13 other teams between them and the bottom 3 should be ignored? 

Reality is, Warne leaving Rotherham probably instigated a loss of form, and if it is OK to speculate Rosenior would have done equally as well as Warne at Derby then it's also reasonable to speculate that Warne would have had a decent season woth Rotherham if he'd not left for us.

A league table is not a selective stat & the irony of your post is you are perfectly happy to rely on those exact stats to come to an extrapolated conclusion on Warne maintaining those level of results based on nothing more than a hunch whilst ignoring his previous record at that level, which suggests that would've been highly unlikely.

I didn't mention Rosenior at any point in my initial post - this is nothing to do with him. I also didn't say anything about ignoring the position in the table, how many defeats they had or places between them & the bottom 3 - its all there to look at. I've said the sample size is too small - you've completely missed my point.

Edited April 12 by LeedsCityRam

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Apologies if I've misunderstood your point, but surely a league table encompassing 46 games is THE most accurate measure of success. What other metric is less misleading? it frustrates me that when teams finish above us it's always because they deserved to over the course of the season, but somehow this same rationale does not apply to us. IMO, if we do secure an autos slot, it's absolutely because we deserved it and by the same token, if we don't, then we clearly won't have. 

Yep , the problem is what criteria some use to judge what deserved means , 

we don’t deserve it because our football isn’t to they’re liking,

Do deserve it because we have done better than those we are competing against🤷‍♂️

[kevinhectoring]

4 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

t's lovely here in Cyprus and the sun is shining 🌟 👍

Is it in your hands?

[jimtastic56]

3 hours ago, Foreveram said:

Where do you get near on £600, the dearest ticket is £537 with no discount.

A ten year discount for a seat in the East and West stand is £465 and a seat in the North and South stands with a ten year discount is £345, which is a long way from £600.

Our ST’s are cheap - the money will not be enough to bank roll any rebuild . We better start saving now in case we ever get to the Prem . 

[Foreveram]

31 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

Our ST’s are cheap - the money will not be enough to bank roll any rebuild . We better start saving now in case we ever get to the Prem . 

I have just had a look at season ticket prices for the championship for last season and we aren’t the cheapest and we aren’t the dearest.

In both the cheapest and the most expensive options we are pretty much bang in the middle.

[FlyBritishMidland]

3 hours ago, Foreveram said:

Also 4 points from third, with a game in hand.

Good point.  And just like 10:00 on Wednesday night when the general assumption was that Bolton would win their game in hand, we must assume the same for Rotherham.  Therefore, that would take to the, 4th or 5th, 3 points off automatics.

It’s also more relevant to compare to the top than bottom because of the number teams between them. Getting in the top 6 relied on a couple of teams losing.  Dropping to the bottom 3 relied on 13 teams winning.

We’ve had posters saying Rotherham stayed up because Warne left, but forgetting their start and his far better ppg than his successor.  This season they’re down with 23 points so far, worse than any season under Warne (40 in 18/19 and 42 in 20/21 when he was in permanent charge although it was 23 when in interim charge).  It could be said that it’s more to do with the resources available to them than any particular manager.