At least we still have a club.......yeah but...

[Marriot Ram99]

15 hours ago, europia said:

Yes, we have to accept that it will take time. Success might not come under Warne or possibly even Clowes, but we have to hope that at some point there will be something that ignites a spark for the clubs resurrection to begin. Look at Luton Town and Coventry City, both had to come back from dark places but have really achieved something in the past few seasons. Our club just needs to find that winning formula at some point. 

We're abit bigger than f****** Luton Town. We're not a mega big club but let's not forget who we are and where we came from.

[Chris_Martin]

On 03/09/2023 at 09:48, CornwallRam said:

The calls for passing football are, IMO, naive. You only get promoted by playing passing football if you have a squad full of high quality players that are simply too good for the rest of the division. The restrictions which we've been under have meant that the rebuild has had to be cheap. Quality players aren't cheap. The only way this squad is getting promoted is with spirit, fitness, organisation and pragmatic football. It doesn't matter if we replace Warne tomorrow - trying to pass our way out of this division with this squad would be a disaster. 

At this point we need a pragmatic manager. If we replace Warne it will be with someone similar. The restrictions have forced us to build the squad this way and it is logical to give this type of squad this season and next to try for promotion. If that fails, then it will be time to review and maybe bring in a manager who will rebuild with expensive passing players and academy products. By that time the restrictions will be long gone and the size of our club should enable us to be more dominant in the transfer market.

Don't agree with that at all to be honest. 

Heres an example, playing under clough we were a fairly average mid table championship side. Mac comes in and implements an attacking, passing style of play, with the exact same players, and we transformed into promotion material. 

Yes the rebuild has had to be cheap, but thanks to a clever and widely respected rosenior, we were able to attract some quality players, especially for this level. Why do we need to have spirit, fitness, organisation and play pragmatic football to get out this division. That will just make us like 95% of the other teams. We need to be better than them, not the same. How can you say trying to pass our way out of this division with this squad would be a disaster? The vast majority of our squad are used to playing that way and were signed with that style of play in mind.

Why do we have to give it this season and next season to try for promotion? We have the players now, we just need someone who knows how to use them. 

[Chris_Martin]

On 03/09/2023 at 10:38, CornwallRam said:

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Even with a direct style we need attacking players. Formation changes will suit some players and reduce the effectiveness of others, but generally good players can play direct football if their attitude is right.

OK, the ball players will need strong, aggressive and mobile players around them to play pragmatic football, but some are always needed.

is it not far quicker and cheaper to replace a manager than buy a whole new group of players to suit him ?

[Chris_Martin]

On 03/09/2023 at 13:09, The_Sheriff said:

What a post!

I have no stats to back it up but under warne we always look like scoring i would imagine our xg proves this in comparison to rosenior or rooney or cocu? 

I know i am in the minority but i am happy to be more direct instead of passing sideways and backwards. 

Too many fans dont know the difference between possession and domination/control of a game

Your talking about the same side thats only shot on goal v bolton was a penalty

Edited September 7, 2023 by Chris_Martin

[Walkley Ram]

54 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

Don't agree with that at all to be honest. 

Heres an example, playing under clough we were a fairly average mid table championship side. Mac comes in and implements an attacking, passing style of play, with the exact same players, and we transformed into promotion material. 

Yes the rebuild has had to be cheap, but thanks to a clever and widely respected rosenior, we were able to attract some quality players, especially for this level. Why do we need to have spirit, fitness, organisation and play pragmatic football to get out this division. That will just make us like 95% of the other teams. We need to be better than them, not the same. How can you say trying to pass our way out of this division with this squad would be a disaster? The vast majority of our squad are used to playing that way and were signed with that style of play in mind.

Why do we have to give it this season and next season to try for promotion? We have the players now, we just need someone who knows how to use them. 

Last season's table of teams key passes per 90 mins. So it's a bit more about quality passing, than quantity, with a goal chance at the end. What did the top 3 teams have in common?

Much less correlation between total number of successful passes, and promotion. Wednesday find themselves way down the table, for example. Looks like the bleeding obvious passing stat that's linked to getting out of this league is key passes. Pass the ball to players so they have a shot. Who knew.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by oodledoodle
adding detail

[Jubbs]

On 03/09/2023 at 13:09, The_Sheriff said:

I have no stats to back it up but under warne we always look like scoring i would imagine our xg proves this in comparison to rosenior or rooney or cocu? 

We were top of the league in xG from open play under Rosenioir.

[CornwallRam]

2 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

Don't agree with that at all to be honest. 

Heres an example, playing under clough we were a fairly average mid table championship side. Mac comes in and implements an attacking, passing style of play, with the exact same players, and we transformed into promotion material. 

Yes the rebuild has had to be cheap, but thanks to a clever and widely respected rosenior, we were able to attract some quality players, especially for this level. Why do we need to have spirit, fitness, organisation and play pragmatic football to get out this division. That will just make us like 95% of the other teams. We need to be better than them, not the same. How can you say trying to pass our way out of this division with this squad would be a disaster? The vast majority of our squad are used to playing that way and were signed with that style of play in mind.

Why do we have to give it this season and next season to try for promotion? We have the players now, we just need someone who knows how to use them. 

It took Nigel several years and numerous Shaun Barker fees to build that squad and it still fell short. I'd say that your example supports my argument, rather than yours.

Your last point is very difficult to sustain. Isn't a manager with 3 promotions and a 7th place in 4 seasons in this division possibly the most likely manager to know how to use the players?

And how is it waiting for promotion? I think you have really missed the point. Pragmatic football is far more likely to result in promotion with a squad necessarily lacking in quality. Trying to get promoted by playing passing football would, IMO, be waiting for promotion.

Don't get me wrong, it would be better in the medium term to build a squad which could pass its way to promotion. Our weakness will be the same as Paul Warne's Rotherham sides - great for escaping League 1, but outclassed by 90% of Championship teams.

If we could've rebuilt with better quality it would have been far better, but we couldn't, so the reality is pragmatic football is where we are.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

I'm not really getting the terror of the championship.  We spent 14 years in it,  mostly on the verge of getting out and would have stayed in it with two centre backs who were nearly 80 between them, Lawrence and a few freebies and kids on a level playing. fairly comfortably in fact .  It's generally a crap league.  

[Chris_Martin]

8 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

It took Nigel several years and numerous Shaun Barker fees to build that squad and it still fell short. I'd say that your example supports my argument, rather than yours.

Your last point is very difficult to sustain. Isn't a manager with 3 promotions and a 7th place in 4 seasons in this division possibly the most likely manager to know how to use the players?

And how is it waiting for promotion? I think you have really missed the point. Pragmatic football is far more likely to result in promotion with a squad necessarily lacking in quality. Trying to get promoted by playing passing football would, IMO, be waiting for promotion.

Don't get me wrong, it would be better in the medium term to build a squad which could pass its way to promotion. Our weakness will be the same as Paul Warne's Rotherham sides - great for escaping League 1, but outclassed by 90% of Championship teams.

If we could've rebuilt with better quality it would have been far better, but we couldn't, so the reality is pragmatic football is where we are.

yes it took nigel several years to build that squad but the fact is he could still only get us playing mediocre football, languishing in mid table. As soon as mac took over the football improved massively and so did the league position. With the exact same squad. Therefore the manager makes a huge difference. 

3 promotions in 4 seasons is great, well done. But they were all done with the same team and you have to ask the question, why has he never managed to keep them up after promotion? Perhaps theres only so far you can go playing that basic football? I would actually say he's definetely not the most likely manager to know how to use the players. He's only ever managed at one club before joining us, where he just played the same basic style his whole time there. He has never previously managed players that are capable of playing any other way. 

We have the players and enough quality to play a passing style. It's what most of them are better at than what they're being told to do currently.

I think you've kind of admitted it yourself there. Your saying our weakness will be the same as warnes rotherhams in that we will be outplayed by championship sides. Therefore why are we sticking with him? Let's not forget we are being outplayed by league one sides too. The way he wants to play football is not going to work with the players we have. You seem to be underestimating just how good our players can be. They are almost all used to playing a better quality of football. 

[lrm14]

47 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

If we could've rebuilt with better quality it would have been far better, but we couldn't, so the reality is pragmatic football is where we are.

 We don't have a pace merchant or a big man up front, we don't have a rock solid defence to soak up pressure and we don't have a team full of physical runners. Instead we have numerous players who have played good, technical football at a much higher level than we're currently at. So where are you getting this idea that the squad is only capable of playing pragmatic hoofball?

[DCFC Kicks]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

yes it took nigel several years to build that squad but the fact is he could still only get us playing mediocre football, languishing in mid table. As soon as mac took over the football improved massively and so did the league position. With the exact same squad. Therefore the manager makes a huge difference. 

3 promotions in 4 seasons is great, well done. But they were all done with the same team and you have to ask the question, why has he never managed to keep them up after promotion? Perhaps theres only so far you can go playing that basic football? I would actually say he's definetely not the most likely manager to know how to use the players. He's only ever managed at one club before joining us, where he just played the same basic style his whole time there. He has never previously managed players that are capable of playing any other way. 

We have the players and enough quality to play a passing style. It's what most of them are better at than what they're being told to do currently.

I think you've kind of admitted it yourself there. Your saying our weakness will be the same as warnes rotherhams in that we will be outplayed by championship sides. Therefore why are we sticking with him? Let's not forget we are being outplayed by league one sides too. The way he wants to play football is not going to work with the players we have. You seem to be underestimating just how good our players can be. They are almost all used to playing a better quality of football. 

You could argue Mac made many of those players play beyond themselves. I can't think of any really that went on to perform better elsewhere afterwards. Hendrick and Hughes played in the Prem, but haven't done that much. Hughes seems to have morphed into a run-of-the-mill CDM. 

In fairness, Warne did leave Rotherham when they were 8th/9th in the table. No one expected him to play amazing football here, but if it got us promoted then its acceptable. I just can't get over what he's done to the team this season. I thought he would build on the 4-2-3-1 of last season, but this 3-5-2 he's played this season has been perhaps the worst football I've ever seen Derby play (not including 07/08), and it's not even been affective. Our players are better than that. Maybe the injuries have forced him to change it, but what would happen to all the wings-backs and strikers he's signed?

[May Contain Nuts]

3 hours ago, CornwallRam said:

pragmatic football is where we are.

...but he doesn't play pragmatic football.

"Dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations"

He does the exact opposite. He forces players to carry out the roles that are they're unsuited for.

If he was being pragmatic he wouldn't constantly ask players who can't run all game to do just that. He wouldn't leave slow defenders exposed without dedicated midfield protection, and many of the other things people complain about.

The wrinkle is that you could say it's based on prior practical application being successful, but it reverts to theory when applied to a new set of players.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Rammy03]

4 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I'm not really getting the terror of the championship.  We spent 14 years in it,  mostly on the verge of getting out and would have stayed in it with two centre backs who were nearly 80 between them, Lawrence and a few freebies and kids on a level playing. fairly comfortably in fact .  It's generally a crap league.  

I concur. It's a fantastic league but yeah you have to be pretty crap to get relegated from it, especially if you're a club of a decent size.

[BramcoteRam84]

3rd highest goal scorers In league 1 behind Barnsley and Bolton, averaging nearly 2 goals a game. Cut out defensive errors and HMS piss the league would’ve been out on Twitter.

Its too early to judge!!

[Ghost of Clough]

11 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

3rd highest goal scorers In league 1 behind Barnsley and Bolton, averaging nearly 2 goals a game. Cut out defensive errors and HMS piss the league would’ve been out on Twitter.

Its too early to judge!!

We will also need to hope Waghorn continues to score a few unexpected goals too. The truth is, we are roughly where we deserve to be and need to make changes to improve on out situation. Other than from set pieces, we don't look like scoring.

[Anag Ram]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We will also need to hope Waghorn continues to score a few unexpected goals too. The truth is, we are roughly where we deserve to be and need to make changes to improve on out situation. Other than from set pieces, we don't look like scoring.

I am hopeful TJJ will come good. 

We need more support from midfield though. I don’t think we’ve seen a combination that’s looked comfortable together.

We have an issue in that our club captain is a guaranteed pick in the hope he produces a goal scoring opportunity. The two or three that play alongside him will have their work cut out because he doesn’t offer much else.

I’m hoping Thompson and Fornah will be more dynamic (maybe Embleton too). 

I think Bird, Hourihane and Smith are playing for one spot when they’re all fit.

Regardless of striking personnel, playing the ball on the floor is the way to go. We don’t have a striker who’s going to nod in crosses from the wing against bigger defenders.

That was perhaps the most deluded aspect of Warne’s wing back plan.
 

 

[jimtastic56]

10 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I'm not really getting the terror of the championship.  We spent 14 years in it,  mostly on the verge of getting out and would have stayed in it with two centre backs who were nearly 80 between them, Lawrence and a few freebies and kids on a level playing. fairly comfortably in fact .  It's generally a crap league.  

The bottom 6 in the Championship are rubbish , but there are always 5 or 6 teams at the top who are propped up with these ridicules parachute payments for 3 years. Yo- yo teams like Burnley. As for our 14 years in that league we did have some fantastic young loan players inc- Mount , Bamford , Linguard , Wilson , Timori etc

[RoyMac5]

40 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We will also need to hope Waghorn continues to score a few unexpected goals too. The truth is, we are roughly where we deserve to be and need to make changes to improve on out situation. Other than from set pieces, we don't look like scoring.

I imagine that Warne will be looking to increase the number of goals scored from set pieces and improve the crossing into the box. That's his mantra isn't it?

[InstaRam]

What I see as most worrying at the moment is our inability to pass the ball. It can be seen in the matches as well as in the statistics. If you have as few passes within the team as we have and also pass wrong so surprisingly often, you will be punished even in this rather lame league. Thought we would be solid at the back this year but with obvious holes in the defense we can't afford to continuously give the ball away to the opposition. I think something needs to change about our tactics because we just can't have so many really bad passers. It must be something else that fails rather than the individual passing skill.

[WestKentRam]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I imagine that Warne will be looking to increase the number of goals scored from set pieces and improve the crossing into the box. That's his mantra isn't it?

Our emphasis on crossing worries me, as from what I've read, therefore it must be correct, crossing the ball may look good and intuitively appear to almost end in the net, but actually it isn't a great method of trying to score.

https://soccerment.com/crossing-effective-strategy/