The Paul Warne Poll

[21CSchizoidRam]

2 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Wonder what option I voted for 

If you can't remember, I'm sure one of the mods can check it for you.

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, Rample said:

Reminds me of Clement or Rowett in respect that nobody was over impressed with their style of play and there were obvious deficiancies in their abilities but Clement had got us into the top 2 and Rowett was steady-ish. 

 

I think the difference there, certainly with Rowett anyway, is that at least I could see what he was trying to do.  I might not have liked the way we played, but I could see a path to it being effective.  We largely played to the players strengths, recruited to fit a system etc.  We had the same lack of pace at the back and in midfield as we do this season (with Davies, Huddlestone, Johnson etc), but we sat deep and compact, so it wasn't exposed.  And we set up to let Nugent, Vydra, Lawrence etc break from deep and get running at people, so they all benefitted from the system too.

I don't get any of that with Warne.  Everything seems to be barely more than doing stuff and random and hoping it works.

[angieram]

11 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I'd be really interested to know Clowe's thought process when getting rid of Rosenior and bringing Warne in.

Was he always looking for an alternative? Or was he giving Rosenior the benefit of the doubt and something made his mind up to get rid? I think the answer will determine the likelihood of whether or not he'll pull the trigger soon.

Probably been answered in the rest of the thread, but he said at SCG the day Warne was announced that the process had started before the season began and that Rosenior was always aware he would be given an opportunity to make his case as part of that process.

[Jourdan]

5 hours ago, brady1993 said:

But any way you look at it it's flawed. So you have a way of playing in mind:

1) Start by trying to sign players to fit that system, can add quality, hit the ground running and are good characters 

2) If that's not possible then you've got 4 reasonable options:

A) Hold off signings and promote from within 

B) Sign players who are more raw but can be developed into the idea you 

C) Flex around character 

D) Sign Good players who are available and re-shape tactically to what you can get 

Warne has chosen the worst of all worlds where he's rigidly sticking to a way of playing despite it not fitting what we had before and also signing players who don't fit that way of playing.

 

If Warne wanted young, athletic, dynamic players, then the recruitment team have either failed the brief or there have been obstacles or circumstances which have made attaining that kind of player more challenging.

Now given that Mark Thomas arrived earlier in 2023 and had months to plan for the summer window, it is safe to assume that there was time for Warne to get his messaging across and make sure everyone was on the same wavelength.

It seems to me that the budget has dictated what kind of player we can attract and it seems to me that the recruitment team have chosen not to bring in that idealised profile of player because the ones within our budget would leave us having to take a massive gamble on their quality.

Perhaps we are in a position where we have opted for the experienced, proven choice (Bradley, Nelson, Elder, and so on) because the players we would have recruited in an ideal world are either too expensive or too raw to build a side with promotion aspirations around.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

19 minutes ago, 21CSchizoidRam said:

If you can't remember, I'm sure one of the mods can check it for you.

Computer said option 5.

[Gerry Daly]

13 hours ago, oodledoodle said:

Nobody expects promotion, but expecting to compete on the pitch is more than reasonable.

Are you really happy that we saw less of the ball than Burton and Fleetwood? I'm not. It's anti football, and Derby fans won't stand for it. It'll be what costs Warne his job if he doesn't sort it.

Is that actually true, that at home we had less possession than Fleetwood Town?? If it is then its nothing short of an effing disgrace 

[May Contain Nuts]

When Big Trav could name all 5 of our first signings with absolute certainty, 4 days before we signed the first of them then I think it's safe to assume that those players were at or very much toward the top of Warne's list.

On top of those we've added Washington who Warne signed for Rotherham (while a Championship club so wages will reflect that) so that'll be another main target signed. 

The stated aim by Warne in interviews was that we would be looking at players you'd expect to want to be playing at Championship level - so those later in their career who think they could still play in the championship but would be willing to drop down, or those on their way up who would have ambitions to be signed by someone at that level but may take a chance of getting there with us.

It was said that it's easy to get players to sign for Derby, but they have to be the right ones. Warne wanted '2 good ones, not 3-4 average ones' (words to that effect) and then there's the whole getting the right character and not just the right player thing, and the remarks about them needing to be able to cope with the pressure of 30k supporters at home every week.

That's is the remit as set by Warne himself, not something he's been forced to say to keep up appearances.

...and on the face of, it all sounded good, commendable even.

The reality is though that targeting such players carried an increased risk that they would go elsewhere. The ones more likely to join being the older ones dropping down rather than the younger ones going up.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that we've ended up signing older players, or that that certain types (the high energy 23-28s) have been harder to identify or have gone elsewhere - especially with all the extra criteria we've added.

While waiting for the 'good' ones the 'average' ones all go elsewhere, leaving you with an even less desirable pool of available players.

In hindsight the entire strategy, which Warne was fully on board with and contributed toward setting - has been counter productive to to us building a squad with the attributes that fit Warne's style of play, and the notion that he's simply been let down by others doesn't really hold much weight.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Chester40]

7 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

When Big Trav could name all 5 of our first signings with absolute certainty, 4 days before we signed the first of them then I think it's safe to assume that those players were at or very much toward the top of Warne's list.

On top of those we've added Washington who Warne signed for Rotherham (while a Championship club so wages will reflect that) so that'll be another main target signed. 

The stated aim by Warne in interviews was that we would be looking at players you'd expect to want to be playing at Championship level - so those later in their career who think they could still play in the championship but would be willing to drop down, or those on their way up who would have ambitions to be signed by someone at that level but may take a chance of getting there with us.

It was said that it's easy to get players to sign for Derby, but they have to be the right ones. Warne wanted '2 good ones, not 3-4 average ones' (words to that effect) and there there's the whole getting the right character and not just the right player thing, and the remarks about them needing to be able to cope with the pressure of 30k supporters at home every week.

That's is the remit as set by Warne himself, not something he's been forced to say to keep up appearances.

...and on the face of, it all sounded good, commendable even.

The reality is though that targeting such players carried an increased risk that they would go elsewhere. The ones more likely to join being the older ones dropping down rather than the younger ones going up.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that we've ended up signing older players, or that that certain types (the high energy 23-28s) have been harder to identify or have gone elsewhere - especially with all the extra criteria we've added.

While waiting for the 'good' ones the 'average' ones all go elsewhere, leaving you with an even less desirable pool of available players.

In hindsight the entire strategy, which Warne was fully on board with and contributed toward setting - has been counter productive to to us building a squad with the attributes that fit Warne's style of play, and the notion that he's simply been let down by others doesn't really hold much weight.

All well and good as a completely theoretical piece. 

But only a small handful of people have any idea of how much of that is 2 + 2 = 4 ..or 5.

Warne and Clowes being at the top of that list. They know who he wanted, who they approached, what demands they had, what the budget was, what the motivations of the players were, who else was interested, what deals fell through and why, what reasons Warne had for wanting/not wanting various players.

What you are arguing is great in theory but you are in possession of about 10% of the important information. The rest is guesswork and about as reliable as a fortune teller who cold-calls your future via some very basic information. 

Personally I'd let Clowes make his own mind up when Warne has had enough time, and even he doesn't seem to think he has enough information to start making any observations yet.

[leamram]

My 10 pence worth is, I thought he was a d******* when he was at Rotherham, I was annoyed when we employed him, and nothing i have seen has changed my mind.

[brady1993]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

If Warne wanted young, athletic, dynamic players, then the recruitment team have either failed the brief or there have been obstacles or circumstances which have made attaining that kind of player more challenging.

Now given that Mark Thomas arrived earlier in 2023 and had months to plan for the summer window, it is safe to assume that there was time for Warne to get his messaging across and make sure everyone was on the same wavelength.

It seems to me that the budget has dictated what kind of player we can attract and it seems to me that the recruitment team have chosen not to bring in that idealised profile of player because the ones within our budget would leave us having to take a massive gamble on their quality.

Perhaps we are in a position where we have opted for the experienced, proven choice (Bradley, Nelson, Elder, and so on) because the players we would have recruited in an ideal world are either too expensive or too raw to build a side with promotion aspirations around.

 

The thing is Warne by most indication has had an active hand in the recruitment and at the very minimum signed off on them. He's set about the strategy of going for experience maybe in the better chance of promotion. 

I have doubts that signing strategy couldn't have brought him closer to his goals stylistically. But let's put that to that one side for one moment. I can understand that you make compromises in the window but if you do end up thinking it's better to sign players who don't quite fit your plan A but still consider them as first team surely you have to reassess the plan tactically ? 

This is the thing that gets me. Even if he has had external difficulties a lot of them are exacerbated by his actions or inaction. I think he's being painted as someone with this great hard job when tbh he probably got the easiest hand dealt at the club when he joined to any manager for a while.

[islandram]

i think the 25 who voted for him to go immediately were not the ones out on streets raising money to save the club just a short while ago we all have differences of opinions and views but come on for gods sake get a grip. were 4 league games in and his transfer funds are probably zero just to keep us in business. if he went who or where would we get anyone else . and anyway some posters would crucify them after first loss i could names them they are  trolls really . some people still need to remember what league we are in ?

Edited August 24, 2023 by islandram

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

The thing is Warne by most indication has had an active hand in the recruitment and at the very minimum signed off on them. He's set about the strategy of going for experience maybe in the better chance of promotion. 

I have doubts that signing strategy couldn't have brought him closer to his goals stylistically. But let's put that to that one side for one moment. I can understand that you make compromises in the window but if you do end up thinking it's better to sign players who don't quite fit your plan A but still consider them as first team surely you have to reassess the plan tactically ? 

This is the thing that gets me. Even if he has had external difficulties a lot of them are exacerbated by his actions or inaction. I think he's being painted as someone with this great hard job when tbh he probably got the easiest hand dealt at the club when he joined to any manager for a while.

Yes I agree with this. Otherwise why couldn't he have used more of our youngsters? It might have taken longer (or not!) but the point would be that they would be for our future. Why not Rooney, Tommo and Bird, Cashin, Sibs and maybe Radcliffe and Bardell. I know who I'd rather see than Bradley, Elder, Vickers et al (I can't actually remember the others, oh Washy - ok, Waggy - ok, Nelson -ok).

Edited August 24, 2023 by RoyMac5

[i-Ram]

1 minute ago, islandram said:

i think the 25 who voted for him to go immediately were not the ones out on streets raising money to save the club just a short while ago we all have differences of opinions and views but come on for gods sake get a grip. were 4 league games in and his transfer funds are probably zero just to keep us in business. if he went who or where would we get anyone else . and anyway some posters would crucify them after first loss i could names them they are  trolls really .

Go on, name them. All 25. Actually 24 will do as I confess to being a Troll.

[SKRam]

Not even close to close to questioning 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Can’t see it will change though the current position that 50%+ are unhappy with his progress to date.

Perhaps the most eager predators couldn't wait to swoop and got in first. There was a big swing towards moderation today and now less than 25% are straining at the leash for an instant or early autumn kill.

You'd better get back quick and put your Chief Whip's hat on to turn out the Wexiteers. Another frenzied campaign as per last night could bring it back in your direction 😂.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Brailsford Ram

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Perhaps the most eager predators couldn't wait to swoop and got in first. There was a big swing towards moderation today and now less than 25% are straining at the leash for an instant or early autumn kill.

Still the majority only prepared to let him have up to Christmas though. We will be left wondering for ever more what the opinion might have been if David had gone for end of October review.  Anyway I am still chuckling away here at my favourite post of the day:

38 minutes ago, leamram said:

My 10 pence worth is, I thought he was a d******* when he was at Rotherham, I was annoyed when we employed him, and nothing i have seen has changed my mind.

[Gringo]

4 hours ago, Gerry Daly said:

Is that actually true, that at home we had less possession than Fleetwood Town?? If it is then its nothing short of an effing disgrace 

Yes its true DCFC 43% possession Fleetwood Town 57%

[sage]

27 minutes ago, islandram said:

i think the 25 who voted for him to go immediately were not the ones out on streets raising money to save the club just a short while ago we all have differences of opinions and views but come on for gods sake get a grip. were 4 league games in and his transfer funds are probably zero just to keep us in business. if he went who or where would we get anyone else . and anyway some posters would crucify them after first loss i could names them they are  trolls really . some people still need to remember what league we are in ?

Any evidence for this? or are you just belittling people who don't agree with you?

[Ghost of Clough]

47 minutes ago, islandram said:

i think the 25 who voted for him to go immediately were not the ones out on streets raising money to save the club just a short while ago we all have differences of opinions and views but come on for gods sake get a grip. were 4 league games in and his transfer funds are probably zero just to keep us in business. if he went who or where would we get anyone else . and anyway some posters would crucify them after first loss i could names them they are  trolls really . some people still need to remember what league we are in ?

Warne's now managed us for 50 games.

Warne had a budget for transfer fees, but has taken the active decision to spend it on wages instead.

Thanks for reminding me we're in League 1 and that we shouldn't be outplayed by relegation candidates, with a minimum expectation this season of promotion.

Who? Well Gary Bowyer would be my top choice at the moment, but there are quite a few available managers willing to manage us in L1. Wilder was tempted by Reading, Moore would come if offered the role. I've always liked Carsley, but feel he'll have eyes on the England men's team when that becomes available. Simon Rusk is another in the England setup after spending 6 years managing Brighton U23s/21s. Leam Richardson got promoted with Wigan in 21/22 and was harshly sacked last season. Richie Wellens and Paul Simpson wouldn't cost much in compensation. 

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, islandram said:

i think the 25 who voted for him to go immediately were not the ones out on streets raising money to save the club just a short while ago we all have differences of opinions and views but come on for gods sake get a grip. were 4 league games in and his transfer funds are probably zero just to keep us in business. if he went who or where would we get anyone else . and anyway some posters would crucify them after first loss i could names them they are  trolls really . some people still need to remember what league we are in ?

I agree