Liam Rosenior

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, nottingram said:

I have absolutely no interest in going over this again as it bored the life out of me yesterday let alone anyone else who had to read it.

Of course you can use it as a metric if you also consider the xG you are giving up to provide some sort of context around it. You seemed to not be doing that which is very selective. I am not sat here saying everything is great because we have the best defence in the league. Source I was using (Experimental 361) had match timelines which had us winning or drawing every game so far in that regard, albeit narrowly, which was why I brought it up.

Feel free to respond but my reply will probably be delayed as I am off to paint my living room walls the same colour and then watch them dry as I simply have to do something more interesting.

I simply brought up that you were complaining about the selective use of a statistic that you yourself brought into the discussion.

But then after discovering that stat then actually undermined your whole argument it then isn't valid anymore (even though you brought it into the discussion in the first place)

Anyhows have a good day with the painting.

[brady1993]

Overall I'm more positive about Rosenior now than when he was first announced. 

I think there is a few things people should be keeping in mind. 

First is that using average xG to compare us to the rest of the league is premature to draw any conclusions. It's a noisy statistic and I highly doubt 4 games is enough to draw a meaningful conclusion from or to compare us to the rest of the league.

Secondly is that we are tactically trying to embed something new with a largely new squad and with a really short pre season. It takes time for these to properly embed and gain fluidity. And we likely haven't even seen the true plan A yet what with the lack of a RB and McGoldrick not being fit so far. So any talk of plan b or shifting things is premature because frankly we need this time to properly embed what we are trying to do for this season and beyond. People talk about lack of bravery but ultimately that comes from the above. It's much easier to be brave when match fit, tactically clued up and familiar with your teammates.

To be honest with all that said I think 7 from 12 points is a really good return. It's positive because we are picking up points at a good rate whilst misfiring a bit as things embed tactically. And I don't expect we will be in full flow at least for another month or two.

I think the plan tactically at an abstract level is a good one and if well executed will see us being able to dominate games and break down teams that play a low block more comfortably than last season. Two physical fast wingers stretch the pitch and provide a option to go long. They can stay forwards almost the entire time which keeps the opposition wary as we can break easily if they overcommit. They can do this because of the inverted fullbacks who support the midfield. Both of these factors also lead in turn to allowing a lot of space and attacking freedom to the two 8s or the 8 and the 10 in midfield so they can in theory hurt teams. Its a good plan with solid tactical thinking behind and we've only seen glimpses of it firing so far.

My only concern is the persistence with trying a midfield with Smith and Hourihane as the advanced options which has looked unbalanced and stagnant since the friendly with Leicester. This is the part that I just don't see Roesnior's think aside from a misguided attempt to keep things tight, go with experience when in doubt and play the new players. Its just not working though and needs addressing going forwards. Especially as I think we have the players to fix the problems. Any of Sibley, Knight, McGoldrick or Thompson played over one of them likely sees a better balance.

If nothing else I think the time has come to evaluate whether we are actually going to get a RB before the window closes and if not perhaps it's time to move Knight from that position and convert Smith to it.

TLDR; It takes time to set a team up from nothing, time we haven't had. Whilst there can be concerns so far this is better than expected for this point in the season.

[nottingram]

15 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I simply brought up that you were complaining about the selective use of a statistic that you yourself brought into the discussion.

But then after discovering that stat then actually undermined your whole argument it then isn't valid anymore (even though you brought it into the discussion in the first place)

Anyhows have a good day with the painting.

No no.

I did bring up xG in the context of our own individual games, I then said a good baseline would seem to be around 1.5 per game. That seemed about top 6 ish each game week based on a very quick look.

You then brought up our xG FOR without any context whatsoever and said “look, we’re 17th”. Doesn’t take into account anything at all really. What if a team creates loads and gives loads up and draws 3-3. What if a team has a really high average xG for (after 4 games) because they created loads v 10 men and won 4-0. What if a team got a dodgy penalty which gave them 0.8 before even looking at the rest of the game. 

Nothing was undermined. We’ve had a middling start and I personally think you could make an argument for anything between 6-12 points being fair. xG timelines would have it at 8-10. Don’t think we’ve deserved to lose any games particularly yet, don’t think we’ve deserved to win them all either. It is certainly far too early to say our style of play is causing us huge problems in matches and it’s far too early to say it’s why we’re winning them either which was the original point.

Based on 4 games I could happily sit here and say our style of play is an excellent defensive tactic and we’ll barely concede any this season which means we will always be in games and win far more than we lose. But of course I’m not saying that, it would be very silly.

Anyway. Really must get on.

[RoyMac5]

42 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

...Saying Liam has lost all the goodwill, that Houraine took the cowards way out, saying this is still just like Cocu (even though nearly all personal have changed), saying this sort of football didn't work last season (when we did so well under the circumstances and went down due to deductions), saying we are very unsurprised and disappointed at the way things are going...all that sort of stuff just makes any genuine points look daft.

If you ever listen to any decent pundits/ex-players, the sort people are trying to emulate in here with their amazing knowledge, they usually always go on about how things take time to get right, especially attacking routines and play. But that doesn't generate much reaction or controversy. Or attention.

I hope you weren't aiming your comments at me specifically?

The points you picked out were from different 'pundits' on here, not one. You seem to think that they can be lumped together and used against any one particular post.

The fact that things can take time to get right doesn't mean they will nor does it mean they should always take 'time'. Not sure there is a specific unit being used here?

Are things getting better then? 

Edited August 18, 2022 by RoyMac5

[Eatonram]

Why are people fretting so much......Shrewsbury conceded just 51 goals last season, they are very tough to break down and yet, arguably, we should have won 1 0 with the Stearman chance, and we wouldn't be having this debate. 

Building from the back is the new norm in football. we are doing it with L1 players who have just met each other. We've made a reasonable if not spectacular start....but already the moaning starts and the chipping away at a manager after 4 league games....we have a very strange supporter base.

[Ram-Alf]

16 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

Why are people fretting so much......Shrewsbury conceded just 51 goals last season, they are very tough to break down and yet, arguably, we should have won 1 0 with the Stearman chance, and we wouldn't be having this debate. 

Building from the back is the new norm in football. we are doing it with L1 players who have just met each other. We've made a reasonable if not spectacular start....but already the moaning starts and the chipping away at a manager after 4 league games....we have a very strange supporter base.

It's what some may seem as entitlement, Look at Man Untd and Liverpool fans, Untd fans shouting down their Manager for not asking them who he should sign, Liverpool fans sending death threats to Palaces Anderson for not getting out of the way of a head but from Liverpools Nunez.

There's a bunch of teens early 20s I watched on some cheeky lads YouTube pod cast saying Derby to win 4-0 3-1, It's this crazy stuff that sets the ball rolling, Ar$e heads not knowing football, Just expecting teams to roll over as we're seen as a very big club on their patch...mind blowing stuff for sure...well not mind blowing just ?

 

[duncanjwitham]

The most encouraging (and equally most frustrating) thing for me, is that I really don't think we need to change that much at all.  Obviously the whole "kicking the ball in the goal when you have a chance" thing needs addressing, but I do think that will come with time/fitness/match-sharpness etc.  Beyond that, we just need to make sure that we actually capitalise on the times we manage to break the lines.  For example, in the game the other night, there were a few times when one of the fullbacks received the ball beyond the opposition's press, and had either an easy ball inside to Max Bird in space, or a ball down the line to the winger, but instead turned and played it back to a centre half.  If those passes keep going forward (or at least stay where they are), instead of going backwards, that phase of play keeps building rather than having to start again from the back.  We don't need a worldie pass, or a magic bit of skill, just to take the easy opportunities that are already there. 

Likewise, there were a few sloppy passes played when we got into decent positions (Hourihane was pretty guilty for this in the last game, for example) that ended up stopping a decent move in it's tracks.  Take those simple opportunities, complete those passes properly, and we're suddenly playing 20/30/40 yards further up the pitch a lot more often.  And to be clear, I'm talking about like half a dozen passes in the entire game.  It really doesn't need major surgery, just a bit more composure and a bit more care in possession. 

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

I hope you weren't aiming your comments at me specifically?

The points you picked out were from different 'pundits' on here, not one. You seem to think that they can be lumped together and used against any one particular post.

The fact that things can take time to get right doesn't mean they will nor does it mean they should always take 'time'. Not sure there is a specific unit being used here?

Are things getting better then? 

No, not aimed at just you at all.

Just some posts have wound we up on here over the last couple of days.

Our position is relatively wonderful compared to the last couple of years. Just a pity the togetherness and support of last season starts to fade after a frustrating 0-0 away at a competent defensive side.

I loved the reaction of our fans at Charlton to defeat. I hoped last season and a fresh start might have finally changed the mindset.

The reaction of a few posters to our good start makes me fear what happens if we actually have a few bad results.

 

[Tyler Durden]

35 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

The reaction of a few posters to our good start makes me fear what happens if we actually have a few bad results.

 

I've always followed the ethos it's wasted energy worrying about things outside of your control. Which is exactly the potential outcome you're referring to.

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

No, not aimed at just you at all.

Just some posts have wound we up on here over the last couple of days.

Our position is relatively wonderful compared to the last couple of years. Just a pity the togetherness and support of last season starts to fade after a frustrating 0-0 away at a competent defensive side.

I loved the reaction of our fans at Charlton to defeat. I hoped last season and a fresh start might have finally changed the mindset.

The reaction of a few posters to our good start makes me fear what happens if we actually have a few bad results.

 

My philosophy is it’s great to be back watching the Rams without having to focus on and worry about what’s going on off the field ???

[Guest]

This post might be a bit out of step with the last few pages, but on the topic of Liam Rosenior, I've no issue with him continuing to do it his way... but am hoping someone influential is having a word in his ear about the things that need tweaking and maybe, in some cases, need fully changing!

In view of his interview (recently put up on dcfc.co.uk) there's a continuation of his pattern of announcing how we're going to play on Saturday - could be a bluff (unlikely), perhaps smacks a bit of arrogance or stubbornness (not always a bad thing), probably not very helpful on the whole though. Maybe it's just me but can't help noticing the "I"-policy/philosophy statements that come into his answers, seemingly in every interview. Is it meant to be reassuring? Is it defensive? Does being "interim manager" have something to do with it or is he confident that Clowes & co are right behind him? He is, after all, a rookie manager, at a great club in a particularly supportive paradigm (especially relative to some recent times) but still a lot of pressure comes with all that.

It looks to me that the Cotterill remark may have got to him more than he says it has; LR explained it as a good thing because it's a sign that Cotterill had to change tactics and others will have to do too - OK, relative to how teams will set up to play Burton Albion, yes, it will probably be a change... but as quite a few posters have suggested, at some point someone is going to lob Wildsmith (or one of our defenders is going to pass it straight past him) and then we might be looking at the trade-off between building-from-the-back possession football and number of goals conceded, when, as Carl Sagan has pointed out, we're not actually making-and-missing too many chances on the whole. As was said earlier in this thread: if Stearman puts in that chance on Tuesday, a 1-0 win at Shrewsbury while dominating possession is very acceptable. One thing that was said about first McLaren's team was we didn't have a Plan B. Do we have much beyond McGoldrick/Sibley-or-Smith to affect the balance of midfield? We certainly have variety of players in the wings (Dobbin being the best example of a unique option) but what do they get asked to do and where do they get asked to play? Otherwise it's all an exercise in shoehorning into a 4-3-3; even then, in the very first friendly we saw NML and Barkhuizen switch wings mid-game - I wouldn't mind seeing more of that but it seems to have been discarded for now.

7 points from 12 is perfectly respectable, and we have a good set of technical players who can definitely do much better, all of which bodes well. If LR (and staff) can see what isn't quite working and do something about it ("more goals" is a bit too obvious and 9-man defences don't help - surprisingly), none of the above represents too much of a problem.

[Leeds Ram]

Rosenior is doing a decent job. He's got us playing nice football but the approach will need looking at i think later in the season. Both full backs running so far forward when our cb's aren't the most mobile will cause us problems. Wildsmith doesn't look overly confident a lot of the time and it could be an issue. We also suffer from a lack of midfield runners, and a lack of play between the lines that makes us at times predictable and easy to play against. I still think we'll get the playoffs at least but we do need to work on these issues

[Anag Ram]

At least Liam knows that if he’s struggling for coaching ideas, he can come on here for expert advice.

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Anag Ram said:

At least Liam knows that if he’s struggling for coaching ideas, he can come on here for expert advice.

Yeah. But who will he listen to?! ?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

2 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

At least Liam knows that if he’s struggling for coaching ideas, he can come on here for expert advice.

An always willing & reliable source.

[Kathcairns]

21 hours ago, Mihangel said:

Exactly the word I was thinking this morning, I genuinely don't understand the negative mentality. So frustrating that the immense positivity that came in July, lasted about 2 weeks in to the season. As I posted earlier, I can only think of the sense of entitlement that some have but this board does seem particularly infected with this negativity.

Agree, seem to have a lot of posters who seem to think they could do a better job as manager, dont know why they dont apply for any sacked managers jobs.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

Agree, seem to have a lot of posters who seem to think they could do a better job as manager, dont know why they dont apply for any sacked managers jobs.

Are you reading this topic as being discussed between (broadly speaking) two camps: a happy one and a disgruntled one?

 

That's not how I was reading it (rightly or wrongly) and I wouldn't put myself in either, other than being very happy that we have a great club, stability, and some good players to watch (including many of our youngsters) and with the prospect of improving a lot.

 

I read it that anything under the topic "Liam Rosenior" allows for us to discuss... Liam Rosenior, respectfully, as I think people have (feel free to correct me) and without any pretensions of being able to do his job better than he can. It's largely professional, hardly personal (although it's the person who shows up to do the job and give the interviews so can't fully dissociate the two) and presumably within the acceptable and expected fare on a fans' forum... or isn't it? Don't most fans have an opinion on most things in relation to their club - even if they choose to keep it to themselves?

[Ellafella]

52 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

At least Liam knows that if he’s struggling for coaching ideas, he can come on here for expert advice.

I'm available most evenings and will do so on a voluntary basis. On day 1, my advice:

1. Buy a full-back

2. Switch Knighty (I get to use player's nicknames as a bona fide "coach") to right midfield. 

3. Let's do some "choreographical" work with the forwards and midfield; as we advance the ball from midfield, down through the middle/left side {note to Liam - Sibley is good at this} I want to see Collins draw towards the middle/edge of the box, "as if" to receive the ball at feet). Simultaneously, I want to see right midfield advance peeling to the right of Collins. I want to see the left wing (Barks? NML on occasion) peel to the left, corner of the box. Sibley releases the ball to Collins's feet on the edge of the box - who has 3 options 1. Hold the ball 2. Dummy/flick  the ball for Knighty to run onto 3. Reverse pass left to Barks / NML. Outcome we advance into the 18 yard area with the ball on the deck. Result: Shooting opportunity...

Is this a familiar pattern of play to emulate? It should be - it was how we played with CM19 and I think Collins can do it too. Also, remember Ravel's 1st goal V Barnsley last year at home when he dummied the pass in for Plange who nipped it back for Ravel to dink in. Beautiful goal - oh so simple. 

We just haven't seen anything like this apart from goal #2 V Barnsley when Barks cut back to NML and Bang! Instead we are seeing too may "lumped in" hopefully to our one forward in the box from {usually} wide right. 

I wonder if this sort of "choreographical" work is done in training? I use to do it when I coached teams and yes it was oh so pleasing when the following Saturday the team re-produced it on the pitch and we scored.  Is it arrogant of me to suggest it? Possibly - our team is perfectly capable of stripping defences to ribbons with the right kind of football up the pitch and it was precisely this sort of football that Will Hughes, Bryson, Jonny Russell, Ward, Hendrick et al  used to turn out during that season, with CM19 being the fulcrum* . When you saw it in action, you just didn't know which way the sea-saw was going to swing - nor did the defenders and that's why the ball usually finished in the net.  

Tuesdays are best for me ?

 

*  fulcrum has also taken on a figurative meaning and is sometimes used to describe a person or thing that is the centre of activity. The most common usage of the word is in physics, where a fulcrum works with a lever to generate a superior force on an object.

 

  

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Ellafella

[Tyler Durden]

15 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

Agree, seem to have a lot of posters who seem to think they could do a better job as manager, dont know why they dont apply for any sacked managers jobs.

Isn't that the exact joie de vivre of being a football supporter, you go down the pub after the game and chat to your mates about decisions and tactics and poor substitutions and so on....you're the one now being negative saying no football fan should be able to even discuss those matters which is exactly what folks are doing on here.

Makes my pee boil that the posters who are complaining about other forum members being negative or hyper critical are exactly that themselves. Hypocrisy at its worst.

[IslandExile]

18 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

Agree, seem to have a lot of posters who seem to think they could do a better job as manager, dont know why they dont apply for any sacked managers jobs.

As a youth, I did apply for the Derby job after Mackay was sacked. Good application aswell, would've enrolled my Dad as assistant - he had experience of managing a pit team.

I'm still convinced that I would've done a better job than Murphy and, certainly, Docherty.

Never received a reply. That was just rude.