Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[Ram-Alf]

15 minutes ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

As a taxpayer I think it’s piss-poor of HMRC to allow one football club to run up £26m of unpaid tax on its own. 
 

They’ve consistently been taken for a ride by football clubs over the years and ought to recognise the signs by now. 

A Government Department which deals in Billions if not Trillions of £s, My Daughter is a Senior offshore VAT Investigator, The stories she tells me on the QT are shocking on how debts are written off as the owner/company have no assets allegedly, Her team worked on the Harry Rednapp tax case...they all thought they had won, Until the Jury fell for the "i'm not that clever and my dog ate all my invoices"

I'm currently being chased for my deceased Brothers tax(self employed)from 2019/2020 and 2020/2021, All because I had to go to his bank stop all payments and sign a form stating I was his personel representative.

PS they wont get a penny from myself.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 minute ago, Stive Pesley said:

Does anyone know the full story of what happened to Glasgow Rangers? They ended up being liquidated didn't they? Ended up having to form a new club and apply to join the bottom tier of Scottish football and have played their way back through to the top league since?

 

Just wondering if there are any similarities here that might give us an idea of what happens if the club is liquidated

There are some similarities but some things will be different (e.g. the stadium) but as part of the liquidation someone could buy the rights to "Derby County football Club" and all the trademarks etc and set up a football club called Derby County. Where they'd start in the English pyramid is obviously up to debate, but from that point onnitd be the long road back.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/18/how-the-mighty-glasgow-rangers-have-fallen (just picked as one of first results on Google, but there's hundreds of articles about it from blogs and newspapers)

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I am probably being very dense BUT.........Wasn't the buying of the stadium by Mel for £80m at the time a purely paper transaction to relieve FFP problems? If that's correct now Mel has called in administrators aren't they going to look at the books and say we want £80m quid off you as you have bought the stadium? Also, I understood Mel had not been putting money in as loans so as such the club dont owe him anything? The club probably owe MSD for the two loans but surely if Mel pays his debt as I think he has to then we should be rolling in cash?

Have I just embarrassed myself?

[GenBr]

41 minutes ago, Oldben said:

It's rumoured pride Park would cost 81 mullion to buy.

If I were the new owner I'd seek to ground share for a while, probably look at Notts county ground share as that's an 18000 seater stadium.

I would not look to buy back pride Park.

I would consider building a new ground some where around Derby.

Chesterfields 10000 seater Proact Stadium cost around 13 million, I thought it a decent stadium for a new ground.

So a 30000 seater stadium could cost 40 to 45 million.

Half the amount required to buy back pride Park.

 

I also wouldnt buy the stadium back. I also wouldnt pay a penny in rent unless it was phenomenally low rates. 

Building a 30000 seater stadium isnt quite so simple as tripling the price of a 10k one though. I still think it could be done for less than 80 mill, but it wouldnt be cheap

[angieram]

20 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I meant that looking for a buyer we're not looking for someone to put the full amount of the money owed in one go! So it's now a case of convincing the administrator 'you' can afford to buy the club, and then the EFL I presume?

I think the EFL may be the difficulty here because the "right and proper owner" test has been tightened really only in the last couple of years. 

I am sure there are owners all across football that would fail the current test. 

[derby8]

33 minutes ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

As a taxpayer I think it’s piss-poor of HMRC to allow one football club to run up £26m of unpaid tax on its own. 
 

They’ve consistently been taken for a ride by football clubs over the years and ought to recognise the signs by now. 

Totally agree. Income tax, VAT I assume, club collects to pass on, system needs tightening up...

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, GenBr said:

I also wouldnt buy the stadium back. I also wouldnt pay a penny in rent unless it was phenomenally low rates. 

Building a 30000 seater stadium isnt quite so simple as tripling the price of a 10k one though. I still think it could be done for less than 80 mill, but it wouldnt be cheap

Moorways stadium in Derby...Council owned I believe, There's been talk for years about DCFC buying and developing this.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

3 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Moorways stadium in Derby...Council owned I believe, There's been talk for years about DCFC buying and developing this.

Bring your own chairs

[CornwallRam]

1 minute ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Moorways stadium in Derby...Council owned I believe, There's been talk for years about DCFC buying and developing this.

It would make more sense to develop a fresh site between the A50 and the city or some of the land that seems to be dormant on Infinity Park Way.

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

All this talk of building a new ground is pretty depressing (to add to all the other depressing DCFC chat).

Can someone post some genuine glimmer of hope type thing please (not the sun is shining and I’m not dead yet type thing either).

[rammieib]

Surely any potential new owner, if there actually is any serious ones out there, won't want to buy a team who sells its assets in January. If £60m is needed to clear the debts, you'd also suspect any new owner would want the ground to come with it. Would Mel be allowed to sell the ground for £1 or actually, would that create a problem given its asset value in the books? I highly suspect that it would cause issues if the ground was only purchased for a £1 - so we now have another issue here....

So does a new owner not only need to clear the £60M of debt (I have no idea if this is how much it is) but if they want the ground they need to pay a fair market value for it - which unsurprisingly is around £80m. I thought Mel had actually transferred the money into the club for this but I guess we will see this in the debtors value if we ever see a new set of accounts published.

So a new owner COULD be looking at a £140m bill if they want the ownership of the ground and at least a minus 12 points deduction.

Yeah - we look really attractive...

[Stive Pesley]

26 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

someone could buy the rights to "Derby County football Club" and all the trademarks etc and set up a football club called Derby County. Where they'd start in the English pyramid is obviously up to debate, but from that point onnitd be the long road back.

Maybe not that long? We're looking at League One anyway. I think the EFL teams would vote to allow us to join L2.

A "Derby County" with 30k fans would not be a practical proposition for non league football in terms of facilities

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Surely any potential new owner, if there actually is any serious ones out there, won't want to buy a team who sells its assets in January. If £60m is needed to clear the debts, you'd also suspect any new owner would want the ground to come with it. Would Mel be allowed to sell the ground for £1 or actually, would that create a problem given its asset value in the books? I highly suspect that it would cause issues if the ground was only purchased for a £1 - so we now have another issue here....

So does a new owner not only need to clear the £60M of debt (I have no idea if this is how much it is) but if they want the ground they need to pay a fair market value for it - which unsurprisingly is around £80m. I thought Mel had actually transferred the money into the club for this but I guess we will see this in the debtors value if we ever see a new set of accounts published.

So a new owner COULD be looking at a £140m bill if they want the ownership of the ground and at least a minus 12 points deduction.

Yeah - we look really attractive...

I’m 99.99% sure Mel hasn’t put £80m cash in to buy the stadium. 
 

Also the stadium is now only worth what a willing buyer is prepared to pay. 
 

Yes it might have been valued at £80m but I surely no one would be prepared to pay even half of that for it now?

[G STAR RAM]

29 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I am probably being very dense BUT.........Wasn't the buying of the stadium by Mel for £80m at the time a purely paper transaction to relieve FFP problems? If that's correct now Mel has called in administrators aren't they going to look at the books and say we want £80m quid off you as you have bought the stadium? Also, I understood Mel had not been putting money in as loans so as such the club dont owe him anything? The club probably owe MSD for the two loans but surely if Mel pays his debt as I think he has to then we should be rolling in cash?

Have I just embarrassed myself?

Unfortunately, due to the failure to submit any accounts to Companies House, nobody except the people ITK can give you the answer to this.

Think its becoming quite clear why MM never filed any accounts at Companies House and that the EFL charges were a convenient excuse to hide behind.

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

10 minutes ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

All this talk of building a new ground is pretty depressing (to add to all the other depressing DCFC chat).

Can someone post some genuine glimmer of hope type thing please (not the sun is shining and I’m not dead yet type thing either).

Sorry but . . .

Abandon ye all hope who enter here. 
 

is the way I’m feeling at the moment. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Half Fan Half Biscuit

[Red Ram]

On 21/09/2021 at 10:44, CornwallRam said:

The rules changed last year, we now have to pay back HMRC in full as part of a CVA.

This had been my understanding too from the information provided by Kieran Maquire and the football365 article etc.

However the recent article in the Athletic states "The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs."

See https://theathletic.co.uk/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/

It would be good to get confirmation of which is correct as it might make a crucial difference to potential new owners.

 

 

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

I’m far from an expert in these matters but could it be that the debts of the “club” are not as bad as we think.

Reading this article https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/25/Derby-takeover-silence-and-mounting-debts-how-did-it-come-to-this it is suggested that the loan from MSD was to Gellaw Newco 202 which owns the stadium and as far as I am aware is not looking to go in to administration.

If that is the case then it seems that Mel Morris may be planning to continue paying off the stadium. Ive read the “Charge” document, Gellaw and the club are listed as Chargors as Freeholder and Leaseholder respectively. I have no knowledge in such matters but would guess even if they have no debt owing to the MSD they would register a charge against the club as the long term leaseholder just to give you legal standing should need to evict them in case of default by the landlord???

 

[StarterForTen]

10 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Surely any potential new owner, if there actually is any serious ones out there, won't want to buy a team who sells its assets in January. If £60m is needed to clear the debts, you'd also suspect any new owner would want the ground to come with it. Would Mel be allowed to sell the ground for £1 or actually, would that create a problem given its asset value in the books? I highly suspect that it would cause issues if the ground was only purchased for a £1 - so we now have another issue here....

So does a new owner not only need to clear the £60M of debt (I have no idea if this is how much it is) but if they want the ground they need to pay a fair market value for it - which unsurprisingly is around £80m. I thought Mel had actually transferred the money into the club for this but I guess we will see this in the debtors value if we ever see a new set of accounts published.

So a new owner COULD be looking at a £140m bill if they want the ownership of the ground and at least a minus 12 points deduction.

Yeah - we look really attractive...

He doesn't need to sell the stadium to the Club; a 99-year lease on a 'pepper-corn' rent will do the trick!

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Unfortunately, due to the failure to submit any accounts to Companies House, nobody except the people ITK can give you the answer to this.

Think its becoming quite clear why MM never filed any accounts at Companies House and that the EFL charges were a convenient excuse to hide behind.

Glimmer of hope from @The Scarlet Pimpernel post short lived. 

[i-Ram]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Right here is my solution to all of this.

MM (or his Gellaw Co) pay off the debt to MSD.

Gellaw sell the ground back to DCFC for its valuation. 

DCFC remortgage the ground to clear the other debts. 

DCFC pay say £2m per year to MM/Gellaw for the ground.

We are told that the model is sustainable and that MM will do everything possible to help the club.

What do you say Mel?

There will be long, long, queue of lenders desperate to get hold of some of that Stadium Mortgage action. 

As for Mel personally paying off MSD without legal action: