Derby County Administration (with the slight possibility of Liquidation still there)

[therams69]

48 minutes ago, Archied said:

So you demand that mel Morris and Stephen Pearson come out in public and state that the club is in chronic position and apologise to the fans whilst giving the facts and figures to the public domain?

that helps the club how ?

Well Mel did come out 3 months ago and say that he would keep the club going until a buyer was found. Since then we found ourselves in a relegation battle on the final day along with another failed takeover. Reassurance should be what we are after and when asked personally he has said "I hope so" - doesn't exactly give me confidence that we will be okay or that is he hanging around for a buyer.

In no way am I demanding facts and figures. But he or Stephen Pearce (our employed CEO) should be coming out and speaking to the fans instead of hiding behind a national radio station or national newspaper. As I have said, there are reasons why they are running scared of Radio Derby & the DET - that is clear surely?!

So it helps the club how and why you have asked? Well seeing as we are the biggest stakeholder in this football club and have no idea what the hell is going on, I think it would be quite clear that informing the fans via any of the above forms would be a positive step as opposed to hiding. All that does it make us worry. After all we will be clearly up this mess in some shape or form over the next few years. 

The club did used to communicate with the fans through various means. That has been stopped at his demand. 

Sometimes when times are hard, its so important to stick together and get through them. Both him and Pearce have distanced themselves from the fans, in fact they are so out of touch. All well and good when times are good........ Why.

[therams69]

9 minutes ago, MrPlinkett said:

Nothing less than an apology followed by a public flogging will do ?

Just honesty and transparency. Its really not that hard. There will be time for apologies but for now we should just be wanting to know what the hell is going on! 

[Spanish]

3 minutes ago, derby8 said:

Saw something about that I think. Can you explain it to me in laymans language please...

A different company (owned by Mel) bought PP from the company that is DCFC.  Cash did no t change hands.  So the assets for DCFC no longer show PP as an asset it now shows it as a debt owed to it.  We haven't seen accounts so god knows what has happened subsequently.  Some believe that this is nonsense as it involves Mel and therefore the club really still owns PP

[Curtains]

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/uk-based-interest-in-Derby-county-takeover-highlighted-after-erik-alonso-hiccup/

[RoyMac5]

38 minutes ago, Curtains said:

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/uk-based-interest-in-Derby-county-takeover-highlighted-after-erik-alonso-hiccup/

Nixon's tweet (not terribly enlightening):

 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, derby8 said:

Look at it this way. ...

Seems to me one of the 3 above have to apply. Unless MM continues as owner and covers losses before long one of them has to come into play. Don't yet believe it's the liquidation one, but something has to give.

Yes, I didn't need the explanation, I needed the why. A leveraged buyout - who funds it & why. Why would anyone buy it and why would a lender lend even at high interest rates, as it also is likely to mean big interest payments to service. If we then can't service the 'leverage loan' what happens? Hence why. 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

2 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

So, if we owe Cocu & staff 8m add HMRC 20m add 30m loans total owed 58m. If Mel decided to pay that all off himself so the club had no debt how much is DCFC worth including Pride Park and the training ground? 

[derby8]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, I didn't need the explanation, I needed the why. A leveraged buyout - who funds it & why. Why would anyone buy it and why would a lender lend even at high interest rates, as it also is likely to mean big interest payments to service. If we then can't service the 'leverage loan' what happens? Hence why. 

I suppose the answer is there has to be a way somehow, somewhere between rich owner and liquidation. MM paying off some debt, other debtors lose out (but ? HMRC), a smaller debt perhaps to be financed, some by cash, some by borrowing. As you say though, looks quite bleak at present. 

A new climate of realism might just persuade a prospective new owner who wants to look at 3 ongoing budget scenarios. Current (prob too high !), New at ffp limits, New at break even. That could mean several more years in the Champ, assuming that's where we are for next season. He will need to judge how patient supporters might be, but steady as she goes for a while better than liquidation !

So many questions, so few answers at present?

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, therams69 said:

we are the biggest stakeholder in this football club and have no idea what the hell is going on,

Seems unfair. It’s public knowledge that he’s failed with two sales, he still wants to sell and that he will continue to fund the club until he does. That about sums it up surely. What else do you think should be disclosed ? 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, therams69 said:

Well Mel did come out 3 months ago and say that he would keep the club going until a buyer was found. Since then we found ourselves in a relegation battle on the final day along with another failed takeover. Reassurance should be what we are after and when asked personally he has said "I hope so" - doesn't exactly give me confidence that we will be okay or that is he hanging around for a buyer.

In no way am I demanding facts and figures. But he or Stephen Pearce (our employed CEO) should be coming out and speaking to the fans instead of hiding behind a national radio station or national newspaper. As I have said, there are reasons why they are running scared of Radio Derby & the DET - that is clear surely?!

So it helps the club how and why you have asked? Well seeing as we are the biggest stakeholder in this football club and have no idea what the hell is going on, I think it would be quite clear that informing the fans via any of the above forms would be a positive step as opposed to hiding. All that does it make us worry. After all we will be clearly up this mess in some shape or form over the next few years. 

The club did used to communicate with the fans through various means. That has been stopped at his demand. 

Sometimes when times are hard, its so important to stick together and get through them. Both him and Pearce have distanced themselves from the fans, in fact they are so out of touch. All well and good when times are good........ Why.

I’m interested what assurances anybody can give at this time when they have not the slightest idea when another single penny of fan money will come through the turnstile again and for how long if ever??‍♂️,

again ..informing the fans what ?

[Archied]

1 hour ago, therams69 said:

Just honesty and transparency. Its really not that hard. There will be time for apologies but for now we should just be wanting to know what the hell is going on! 

So put the clubs financial problems out in the public domain ? 

[Spanish]

15 minutes ago, derby8 said:

I suppose the answer is there has to be a way somehow, somewhere between rich owner and liquidation. MM paying off some debt, other debtors lose out (but ? HMRC), a smaller debt perhaps to be financed, some by cash, some by borrowing. As you say though, looks quite bleak at present. 

A new climate of realism might just persuade a prospective new owner who wants to look at 3 ongoing budget scenarios. Current (prob too high !), New at ffp limits, New at break even. That could mean several more years in the Champ, assuming that's where we are for next season. He will need to judge how patient supporters might be, but steady as she goes for a while better than liquidation !

So many questions, so few answers at present?

A CVA is still administration in the eyes of EFL so 12 points penalty

[Angry Ram]

9 hours ago, i-Ram said:

HMRC are responsible for:

Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Inheritance Tax, Insurance Premium Tax, Stamp, Land and Petroleum Revenue Taxes

Environmental taxes

climate change and aggregates levy and landfill tax

Value Added Tax (VAT), including import VAT

Customs duty

Excise duties

National Insurance

Tax Credits

Child Benefit

Please don’t put this on Twitter, but my understanding is that we still owe duty on the importation of Albentosa, Camara and Jozwiak, and are massively in arrears on child benefit payments for Knight, Sibley, Buchanan and Bird. The biggest debt to HMRC though falls under the Climate Change Levy where Mel Morris has incurred the club significant fees for the over production of worthless hot air.

Schoolboy error.. Albentosa, Camara and Jozwiak were all EU imports before Brexit and therefore duty free. ?

Dont get everyone started again ?

[RamLad1884]

1 hour ago, therams69 said:

Well Mel did come out 3 months ago and say that he would keep the club going until a buyer was found.....Have we missed something? Mel is stilling funding the club, there's been nothing to suggest otherwise? 

In no way am I demanding facts and figures. But he or Stephen Pearce (our employed CEO) should be coming out and speaking to the fans instead of hiding behind a national radio station or national newspaper...We had a statement from the club last weekend, if we got a statement every time anything happens then it'd be like a twitter feed. The club needs time to sort itself and they'll have a statement once there is worthwhile news. 

So it helps the club how and why you have asked? Well seeing as we are the biggest stakeholder in this football club.... Nope. We're not. If anything this lockdown has proven the fans backing is a plus but not essential for the funding and future of the club. 

 

[i-Ram]

38 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Schoolboy error.. Albentosa, Camara and Jozwiak were all EU imports before Brexit and therefore duty free. ?

Dont get everyone started again ?

Silly you. Morris and Pearce were unaware of tax rules on importing, and had them sent over in shipping containers routed via Egypt. They knew some Geezer in Giza who could do them a deal. Saved a bit of money short term, but disappointingly it turned out they recovered more money on the sale of the containers than we got for the return of Albentosa and Camara. Jozwiak’s valuation remains quite high as Pearce has his value still at 100% of purchase price, because even though he is a bit cack at football at times, he generates a secondary economic benefit as he is doing some building work round at Mel’s gaff.

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, I didn't need the explanation, I needed the why. A leveraged buyout - who funds it & why. Why would anyone buy it and why would a lender lend even at high interest rates, as it also is likely to mean big interest payments to service. If we then can't service the 'leverage loan' what happens? Hence why. 

A leveraged buy out is loved by the providers of equity in the deal because that's how they can generate whopping returns.

There is also a tax angle because loan interest is paid out of pre tax earnings so you're getting tax relief on the debt which makes it cheaper for the club than equity. 

Lenders will lend at rates commensurate with their security and so are indifferent. 

The risks are higher for the club itself. Which is why the term is often associated with asset stripping as assets are sold to fund the debt if the cost of servicing becomes too high. 

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, therams69 said:

Well Mel did come out 3 months ago and say that he would keep the club going until a buyer was found. Since then we found ourselves in a relegation battle on the final day along with another failed takeover. Reassurance should be what we are after and when asked personally he has said "I hope so" - doesn't exactly give me confidence that we will be okay or that is he hanging around for a buyer.

In no way am I demanding facts and figures. But he or Stephen Pearce (our employed CEO) should be coming out and speaking to the fans instead of hiding behind a national radio station or national newspaper. As I have said, there are reasons why they are running scared of Radio Derby & the DET - that is clear surely?!

So it helps the club how and why you have asked? Well seeing as we are the biggest stakeholder in this football club and have no idea what the hell is going on, I think it would be quite clear that informing the fans via any of the above forms would be a positive step as opposed to hiding. All that does it make us worry. After all we will be clearly up this mess in some shape or form over the next few years. 

The club did used to communicate with the fans through various means. That has been stopped at his demand. 

Sometimes when times are hard, its so important to stick together and get through them. Both him and Pearce have distanced themselves from the fans, in fact they are so out of touch. All well and good when times are good........ Why.

Just to be clear here, your gripe is that MM has told us the situation via the national media rather than the local media?

As for distancing themselves from the fans, when and where exactly were you expecting them to engage the fans? You are aware of the pandemic aren't you?

[RoyMac5]

37 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

The risks are higher for the club itself. Which is why the term is often associated with asset stripping as assets are sold to fund the debt if the cost of servicing becomes too high. 

And if the high interest debt can no longer be serviced, what then we've got few/no assets!? I presume that's why borrowing to buy us is seemingly limited to 'dodgy money'?

[Van der MoodHoover]

44 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And if the high interest debt can no longer be serviced, what then we've got few/no assets!? I presume that's why borrowing to buy us is seemingly limited to 'dodgy money'?

If assets are used to secure the debt then yes, DCFCs assets become forfeit. 

If the loans are unsecured, or backed by the owners who turn out to be men of straw, then insolvency proceedings begin and we lose the club. 

In the age of limited liability there's little downside for the equity holders apart from the loss of their investment, which as you say can be very small compared to the overall money borrowed to buy the club. 

There are a number of eminent economists reflecting that giving tax relief on debt interest has hugely skewed the global economy away from equity. 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

There are a number of eminent economists reflecting that giving tax relief on debt interest has hugely skewed the global economy away from equity. 

An interesting concept! ? Tell them to get a move on removing it then. ?