Paul Warne

[YorkshireRam]

Just now, sage said:

I'm very puzzled. I said I'm against all name calling and yet somehow I'm 'stooping'. 

Whether all opinions are equal is indeed debatable but everyone still has a right to one and should feel able to give their opinion on a forum. Again I'm not sure how this is controversial.

 

That final sentence was a poorly-phrased indirect address: ''they kind of invalidate themselves'' works just as well but somehow felt linguistically clumsier. Really wasn't aimed at you in any way, quite the opposite. Sorry for the confusion regardless. 

[Eddie]

9 hours ago, oodledoodle said:

Wasn't that thread from October, when things were looking absolutely dire on the pitch? I appreciate it's a results business, but at the time we were getting neither the results nor a performance. We'd barely troubled the top six the previous season, and looked set to repeat the same again.

The message was sent loud and clear that it wasn't good enough. Had things carried on in the same manner, he'd have been out of a job. Absolutely no doubt in my mind. It's also important that Warne at this point was freely admitting things were nowhere near good enough. It wasn't just us Warne outers that were critical. He was agreeing with us.

Credit given to all involved that following that "altercation" with Hourihane and the fans, results did improve. And that was despite key players being out injured. I absolutely think that the toxicity at the time knocked some reality into the players and staff. I think it was their make or break time. I also absolutely think we'd be nowhere near second had we all just clapped them off every game, and quietly accepted whatever garbage was being served up. I truly think it was the moment the penny dropped for the club. And it was needed.

I think that point in time, when the Warne doubt was at it's highest, that neither camp was wrong. One camp were fed up with things as they were in reality. One camp were optimistic things would improve. I'd also argue both camps were right because despite results improving, arguably the football didn't. So some very valid questions remained.

However it's results that get you up, so most sane doubters were placated. And we did go up. Because we're Derby and we're brilliant, regardless of who's in charge.

But I'm always wrong, so feel free to disagree.

Knee-jerk reactions are just that. I was pointing out just how stupid they can be, and how much egg can be left on faces. You would think that people would learn not to jump in with both feet when a more measured response would be more apposite, but it seems to be a common trait amongst some. It's also worth pointing out that the thread in question rumbled on for several more months, with the egg getting more and more smelly with each passing week.

Edited April 30 by Eddie

[TuffLuff]

1 hour ago, sage said:

Some people are more sensitive than others but despite not feeling bullied myself I have felt rounded upon and debate being shut down.

Again I would add that just because someone feels and reacts differently to you, it doesn't mean they are wrong or there is something wrong with them.

To be honest though mate I think we’ve all felt like that over one topic on this forum, the unfortunate truth is we’ve all been the person rounding up on someone else too. Although I think it’s got a little worse since the admin year because everyone was more active and living through every twist, I just think it’s part of forum life. You’ll  write a throwaway post and it’ll be analysed within an inch of its life, you’ll write five long paragraphs explaining your view in a balanced way and no one will engage except one poster who still hasn’t got the point of what you’ve said. Again, it’s what it is.

We are all over precious about what we say, I really try nowerdays to make my point on something and let it go. It might not help debate but it helps not having to explain something over and over. Also I think we sometimes just have to admit we were wrong sometimes. I’ve criticised Warne, Bird, Wilson and a whole load more things at different times this season but I’ve also had to admit on here they’ve all proved me wrong at some point too. We all have a right to an opinion but we also have to put our arms up sometimes too. 

 

[Wolfie]

Did we have the biggest budget in the league this season?.

I keep seeing it said on here and used as a stick to beat Warne with but how does anyone know that?. I can't remember DC's exact words early on but recall he said something like it would be competitive with the other bigger clubs.

Maybe I've missed some official confirmation?

[Nuwtfly]

1 hour ago, Anag Ram said:

We’re all fallible but please let’s be more respectful of other opinions. Just as we don’t know much about the players’ private lives, you never know what posters on here are going through and how a casual slur can affect them.
 

I went through this quite a bit when Wayne Rooney was manager. I remember saying something critical of him after a win and a poster replied to me with a gif of someone hanging. Unbeknownst to that poster, that was pretty distressing to me. 

Part of the fun of debating with people on a forum like this is getting to talk to people who don't agree with you. Nobody wants to be in an echo-chamber (or at least I don't). 

But I have found, particularly post-COVID, people are just ruder to people on here, on Twitter, on the internet, than they used to be. 

I read a post in this thread, just a few posts back, that made me stop in my tracks and think: why have you reacted to that person's point so rudely? No need.

My point being that what you're saying is very much worth saying. 

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, Wolfie said:

Did we have the biggest budget in the league this season?.

I keep seeing it said on here and used as a stick to beat Warne with but how does anyone know that?. I can't remember DC's exact words early on but recall he said something like it would be competitive with the other bigger clubs.

Maybe I've missed some official confirmation?

The financial figures released for 22/23 showed we had a high wage budget compared to the rest of the league, maybe not the highest but very much up there. £7.3m on first team wages according to this, not sure how that compares to other sides but it's probably pretty high for league one and we’ve recruited further for 23/24;

I’ve preached patience with Warne for 2 years, and yes the club has been working with restrictions for sure, but let’s not pretend we’ve not had some money to spend. How that money has been spent should be the focus of the debate for me, with consideration of those restrictions as part of the debate.
Our agents fees were the highest in the league as a result of both the restrictions we faced (big focus on free agents) and the resources available, we could afford to spend the most;

Just presenting the info I can find, I don’t see why people use it as a stick to beat Warne with as there are plenty of examples throughout football where having the biggest budget doesn’t always equal success (Chelsea lately anyone?), it still needs a capable manager to shape a squad and get it performing which Warne has done, perhaps more pragmatically than some would like. 

[Grumpy Git]

I've found if you're going to post something controversial, before pressing the 'submit' button, its best to edit it a few times, wait 30 minutes, then delete it. 👍🏻

[Inverurie Ram]

 

[Archied]

6 hours ago, sage said:

Some people are more sensitive than others but despite not feeling bullied myself I have felt rounded upon and debate being shut down.

Again I would add that just because someone feels and reacts differently to you, it doesn't mean they are wrong or their is something wrong with them.

You still don’t address the point of bullying accusations, people being more or over sensitive does not give them or others the right to label others with bullying, don’t you agree ? 

[Archied]

6 hours ago, sage said:

Well there is evidence because one poster publicly quit last week citing bullying. 

I also know 2 other people who have stopped posting. That is evidence.

Bullying is in the eye of the beholder to an extent. 

If it’s the poster who left as a result of direct messages then we cannot judge the validity of the claim of bullying, that’s why when I recieved abusive direct message s I told the sender to keep things on the open forum ,,,, and no bullying is not in the eye of the beholder and in fact I would say people calling people bully s when they have done no such thing is in fact a very snidey underhand form of bullying,

you will know from the Jim smith I have been rounded on very often because my views often don’t line up with the majority, I’ve never felt or claimed bullying, to call someone a bully is very serious or in my view should be serious 

[jono]

7 hours ago, sage said:

Well there is evidence because one poster publicly quit last week citing bullying. 

I also know 2 other people who have stopped posting. That is evidence.

Bullying is in the eye of the beholder to an extent. 

I am happy to be proved wrong but I think it was something like Stockport Ram under a thread cheerio ?  -  can’t find it. It upset me at the time, hate to see anyone stressed like that,  but rather than bullying I think (don’t know if I am right ? ) he talked about toxic, negative, argumentative debate. Anyway, he/she had a point. Sometimes we all get riled and exchanges between posters get a bit spicy. Regardless, I would suggest that bullying (and I have been there ) is when you feel cowed, frightened and unable to voice your feelings because of some over bearing presence or physical threat. The contention that this has happened here is, to me at least, fallacious . There has been scorn, derision, petty name calling on many fronts but no individual poster has been singled out, isolated or threatened. The only possible “victim” of near universal opprobrium is Bris .. but he/she courts it and I suspect loves the attention caused by his inflammatory and condescending statements of “fact” - as he/she sees it. Everyone else has their allies. I haven’t seen anyone in a corner alone or picked on. I think you need to understand what bullying really is.

[sage]

14 minutes ago, jono said:

I am happy to be proved wrong but I think it was something like Stockport Ram under a thread cheerio ?  -  can’t find it. It upset me at the time, hate to see anyone stressed like that,  but rather than bullying I think (don’t know if I am right ? ) he talked about toxic, negative, argumentative debate. Anyway, he/she had a point. Sometimes we all get riled and exchanges between posters get a bit spicy. Regardless, I would suggest that bullying (and I have been there ) is when you feel cowed, frightened and unable to voice your feelings because of some over bearing presence or physical threat. The contention that this has happened here is, to me at least, fallacious . There has been scorn, derision, petty name calling on many fronts but no individual poster has been singled out, isolated or threatened. The only possible “victim” of near universal opprobrium is Bris .. but he/she courts it and I suspect loves the attention caused by his inflammatory and condescending statements of “fact” - as he/she sees it. Everyone else has their allies. I haven’t seen anyone in a corner alone or picked on. I think you need to understand what bullying really is.

The person in the cheerio thread mentioned bullying.

I understand what bullying is. I deal with it in my job. I'm not sure why you seem so determined to counter every post I make about this. You keep coming back to it.

 

[jono]

4 minutes ago, sage said:

The person in the cheerio thread mentioned bullying.

I understand what bullying is. I deal with it in my job. I'm not sure why you seem so determined to counter every post I make about this. You keep coming back to it.

 

I don’t do it on purpose. Early days for me 8/10 years ago, I thought you were a balanced poster with much reason to offer in debates and a lot of Thoughtful comments. I just took exception to the bullying thing, the victim mentality, the seeming desire to avoid a back and forth discussion / weighing of the odds. This is a football forum, we all have views. Some pretty strong, some knee jerk passion; that we might either regret or be glad we voiced. There will inevitably in these circumstances be people who disagree with us and use firey language .. jees we are a bunch of folk arguing the toss in an open environment. No body is being threatening. When “new speak” starts to creep in and somehow you aren’t able to be forthright without someone sticking a name tag on you grates beyond measure. Sorry, I don’t mean to be personal or irksome but I have a point to make and believe I have been measured, reasonable and argued with logic. The moment ( and this isn’t aimed at you) I see certain language forms my hackles go up. “Gas light” “Straw man” .. there are plenty, that in isolation are useful but too often they speak of a corporate HR dept of a state institution.  Tick box, say the right thing, pass the course. It’s intellectually shrivelled. 

[Archied]

18 minutes ago, sage said:

The person in the cheerio thread mentioned bullying.

I understand what bullying is. I deal with it in my job. I'm not sure why you seem so determined to counter every post I make about this. You keep coming back to it.

 

Yet your not prepared to clarify what you hint at , ie if someone says they feel bullied then they are being bullied , you may well deal with it in your job , doesn’t mean you understand it any better than anybody else , your above post sets you out as knowing more about it as you deal with it in your job,

you’ve thrown out the accusation of bullying of forum posters , now I feel that’s bullying by you to get your own way, by your metric that make s you a bully , doesn’t matter if you are or not , me feeling it is enough to make it so ? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[De22Ram]

He obviously splits opinion! Watch him get us flying next season, everyone gets behind him and then he will be poached by another team! It would be looools and gutting at the same time!! 😬🙈🐏🫣

Edited April 30 by De22Ram

[Archied]

15 minutes ago, jono said:

I don’t do it on purpose. Early days for me 8/10 years ago, I thought you were a balanced poster with much reason to offer in debates and a lot of Thoughtful comments. I just took exception to the bullying thing, the victim mentality, the seeming desire to avoid a back and forth discussion / weighing of the odds. This is a football forum, we all have views. Some pretty strong, some knee jerk passion; that we might either regret or be glad we voiced. There will inevitably in these circumstances be people who disagree with us and use firey language .. jees we are a bunch of folk arguing the toss in an open environment. No body is being threatening. When “new speak” starts to creep in and somehow you aren’t able to be forthright without someone sticking a name tag on you grates beyond measure. Sorry, I don’t mean to be personal or irksome but I have a point to make and believe I have been measured, reasonable and argued with logic. The moment ( and this isn’t aimed at you) I see certain language forms my hackles go up. “Gas light” “Straw man” .. there are plenty, that in isolation are useful but too often they speak of a corporate HR dept of a state institution.  Tick box, say the right thing, pass the course. It’s intellectually shrivelled. 

Spot on 

[silverback]

I was a manager with some success during most of my working life

I learned early that the way to the objective was team work, any or all part of that team was heralded at some point, each person playing their part, large or small, but all of it orchestrated by the manager.

The eventual goal being reached by the group, was the indicator of a good manager, so I will say we have a good manager. 

We have much further to go to reach the promised land of milk and honey, and I would expect that most would give a grudging acceptance that Mr Warne should have the opportunity to take us to the next level.

He may choose not to accept the challenges ahead and decide to step down.

He may feel the challenge too much, and decide that he can maintain his kudos at a lower level and should that be the case, I would heartily thank him for his hard work in getting us out of the millpond of Division 1. 

I personally think he will have much still to offer in a higher setting, and should he decide that the timing is right and wishes to uptake the stark challenges ahead, I for one would whole heartedly support that initiative.

I like his whole club mentality and generally as a person he comes over as genuine,  and that will always be a key issue for this old fan, he cares.

So to close, Mr Warne because of you leadership and moral code, I will accept your decision either way, but if you stay you will definitely have the support of this old RAM.

🦍

[sage]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

You still don’t address the point of bullying accusations, people being more or over sensitive does not give them or others the right to label others with bullying, don’t you agree ? 

I didn't say over sensitive. That's your interpretation.

It's a fact that some people would consider a hypothetical scenario bullying when another person may not.

That doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't bullying. It's a grey area and can't just be written off.

 

[sage]

9 minutes ago, Archied said:

Yet your not prepared to clarify what you hint at , ie if someone says they feel bullied then they are being bullied , you may well deal with it in your job , doesn’t mean you understand it any better than anybody else , your above post sets you out as knowing more about it as you deal with it in your job,

you’ve thrown out the accusation of bullying of forum posters , now I feel that’s bullying by you to get your own way, by your metric that make s you a bully , doesn’t matter if you are or not , me feeling it is enough to make it so ? 🤷🏻‍♂️

I didn't say I know more than others I was responding to a barb that 'need to understand what bullying is'.

Again I'm amused me mentioning that some posters felt bullied into not stating theur views has led to 20 posts directed at me personally with several barbs. Now I don't feel bullied but I do find it more than a little ironic. 

That's me done. 

[Ghost of Clough]

9 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Let’s open up that conversation again, you and those others with valid concerns that you’re undoubtedly able to articulate should put them forward now (not saying you shouldn’t have before either by the way). The season is done, the radio Derby review and preview last night included some deserved praise for what has been delivered and some fair observations on what could be better, so let’s discuss it openly as adults as you say 🍻
 

Any inappropriate comments or behaviour can be reported should there be any. 

When Warne was first appointed as manager, I pointed out a number of my concerns.

I think it's still fair to say a couple of those concerns remain: style of play, reducing the chances of keeping our academy graduates

Style of play must improve in the future. As shown this season, when we don't win, there is nothing to fall back on and results in a lot of unhappy fans. Perhaps fans as a whole will be more forgiving when we're considered underdogs in games and we expect to lose? We've also lost Knight and Bird, and eere close to losing Cashin. Are we going to keep Sibley and Thompson this summer? 

I think it's also fair to say recruitment has emerged as a concern, in particular the apparent lack in plans to sign players to suit a system, which has also resulted in a mixed success rate. Not signing any wingers but signing wing backs in the summer, only to play a back 4 and wingers after the window closed, followed by signing a winger in January, only to stop using wingers afterwards.

 

However, it's only right for me to point out where my concerns appear to have been addressed: damage to the academy [retention of top prospects], dwindling attendances, the destruction of the feel good factor around the club, etc... 

So far, we managed to retain all of our top talent, with suggestions of us recruiting some very good youngsters from other clubs. Attendances also picked up, especially for the run in. Our average for the season was also our highest since 16/17 despite fewer away fans. It's also undeniable that the feel good factor is back!