Who enjoys Warne's football poll?

[Walkley Ram]

52 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Please feel free to block me.

More effective block than Paul Warne could organise

[Gerry Daly]

On 09/09/2023 at 08:59, Gerry Daly said:

I voted no but I remember that I hated the pointless possession for possessions sake football under Clement and Cocu more. Remember how we would work it up one wing, get to level with the penalty area then turn and play it back then across the box  via it going all the way back to the centre halves and then up the other wing to the edge of the box then repeat? Keep it, keep recycling it then lose it. Never shooting, never creating any chances. We would go a half and at half time think we haven’t had a single attempt on goal. 

There has to be a happy medium between that rubbish and the stuff Warne is now serving up. The sort of football that Steve McLaren played. 

 

There is a PS to this. The rubbish possession for possessions sake football I described was shown exactly by England last night 

[ram59]

50 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

 

The reason LR did the goal kicks like that was to draw the opposition onto us so as to creat more space in midfield. Wayne also did this, it can be very effective. And at the very least it's some form of tactical play

I know what the idea is, but trying to do it with third tier players, is only going to end in tears. 

You have a CB on the corner of the six yard box, passing to the keeper in the middle, about 10 yards away, who then had to control the ball and decide who to pass it to. Meanwhile, there is a fit young striker 12 yards away, ready to sprint and close him down. All it needs is the pass to be slightly too fast or too slow or too much to the right or left, or for the keeper to miss control it, for it to end up in the back of our net.

I've seen it happen too many times with highly skilled players at Premier and international level, never mind lg1. Every time it cost us a goal, LR would say blame me, not the players, they're only following my instructions.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, ram59 said:

I've seen it happen too many times with highly skilled players at Premier and international level, never mind lg1. Every time it cost us a goal, LR would say blame me, not the players, they're only following my instructions.

...and yet in reality it'll have resulted in far fewer chances / goals against than your memory and imagination tells you it did, for any team.

Naturally though when these mistakes happen they tend to be a bit more high profile, rather easy to pick out and highlight to the max. It's a massive hang-up some people have developed because it looks so much more catastrophic, and easier to ridicule, when it does happen.

It's a trade off against the myriad other defensive mistakes that occur precisely because a team doesn't keep possession and control games, and it's no coincidence that we had more penalties given against us than any other team last season playing it Warne-style.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Ghost of Clough]

58 minutes ago, ram59 said:

I know what the idea is, but trying to do it with third tier players, is only going to end in tears. 

You have a CB on the corner of the six yard box, passing to the keeper in the middle, about 10 yards away, who then had to control the ball and decide who to pass it to. Meanwhile, there is a fit young striker 12 yards away, ready to sprint and close him down. All it needs is the pass to be slightly too fast or too slow or too much to the right or left, or for the keeper to miss control it, for it to end up in the back of our net.

I've seen it happen too many times with highly skilled players at Premier and international level, never mind lg1. Every time it cost us a goal, LR would say blame me, not the players, they're only following my instructions.

Of the 10 goals conceded with Rosenior as manager, how many resulted from what you're describing?

There are faults with every system. For example, the way Warne wants us to play means our defence is exposed man for man every time we lose the ball. Even one of the greatest sides of all time struggled against certain setups. Pep's Barcelona would struggle most against defensively compact sides, typically those setting up in a 451.

[May Contain Nuts]

too late to edit..

The smaller mistakes are just seen as part and parcel of the game, nobody is going to notice if a team makes fewer of them due overall by playing out from the back when they can jump up and down and get outraged at a team giving the opposition a daft goal every 10 or so games.

[Bris Vegas]

I’d rather have the ball than not have the ball. But Warne seems to favor not having the ball and creating chances through second balls, picking up loose balls in dangerous areas and feeding off the opposition mistakes.

Honestly, this is the easiest way of setting up a team and requires the least amount of technical coaching.

I just don’t like it. Never have.

From Jim Smith to George Burley to Steve McClaren, I like technical football which requires skill, bravery on the ball and vision.

I get making do with what you have. I understand why Nigel Clough took years to finally play some decent stuff until he had the players to do so.

But what is Warne’s excuse. Hourihane, Bird and Smith are ball-playing midfielders. Probably among the best in the league. Why bypass that with aimless long balls to Wash, Waghorn and ‘Collo’. 

[i-Ram]

8 hours ago, Curtains said:

So are you saying David Clowes didn’t do due diligence on Paul Warne !

I think that’s unfair on David Clowes if true. .

Not having a go at you mate as you are pretty consistent with your views in this. .

I seem to remember I was on here saying I wanted Rosenior to stay and got hammered for it as the majority view on the forum was pro Warne appointment including his big detractors now.

I always try to get behind the manager and players at Derby County and I think our Chairman who saved DCFC and Paul  Warne and the players deserve some slack.

If we win the next load of games and shoot up the League and get promoted will the Paul Warne detractors change their views .

I also don’t get this vitriol against Paul Warnes style of management and against his interview techniques.

He is who he is and I don’t mind him at all .

Come on You Rams 

I have no reason to question David Clowes due diligence, as I don’t know a) what it was that was done, nor b) what he hoped to achieve from the appointment. However, if Clowes did actually select Paul Warne because his primary objective was to bring an attractive style of football to Derby he will have failed spectacularly.

[alram]

3 hours ago, ram59 said:

I enjoy the theory of his style of play, although the practical application seems to be somewhat lacking ATM.

However, watching England yesterday, reminded me of watching Derby under LR. It was so slow, passing for the sake of it. For all the possession England created virtually nothing, with the goal coming from pure Warne ball, 50 yard diagonal long ball from by the half way line to a wide player, not unlike many balls from Cashin to NML. The most annoying aspect of LR ball was the ridiculous goal kicks from the CH to the keeper, inviting the opposing forwards to put us under pressure.

i think people go over the top with passing = bad, long ball = bad

 

i think good and bad football depends on the intensity, high intensity football is good to watch whether you hoof it or pass it short. low intesity football is bad to watch whether you hoof it or pass it short

 

the liverpool man city rivalary over the last few years was so good to watch because both have different styles but both have incredible intensity to there game

Edited September 10, 2023 by alram

[alram]

44 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Of the 10 goals conceded with Rosenior as manager, how many resulted from what you're describing?

There are faults with every system. For example, the way Warne wants us to play means our defence is exposed man for man every time we lose the ball. Even one of the greatest sides of all time struggled against certain setups. Pep's Barcelona would struggle most against defensively compact sides, typically those setting up in a 451.

tiki-taka style basically died because they couldnt beat low block sides and everyone just played that way against it

 

even guardiola who mastered it and influenced everyone across the world ditched it (why hes such a good coach)

Edited September 10, 2023 by alram

[Malty]

Don’t like it. Putting up with it as a theory that it’s the best way out of the division. We have to give it another year at least.

I hope we continue to invest in the youth set up at least so that we might have a bit of potential coming through when Warne leaves/is fired next year….…. 
 

…. unless of course we get promoted playing Warne ball. Here’s hoping.

 

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I have no reason to question David Clowes due diligence, as I don’t know a) what it was that was done, nor b) what he hoped to achieve from the appointment. However, if Clowes did actually select Paul Warne because his primary objective was to bring an attractive style of football to Derby he will have failed spectacularly.

Rooted in more pragmatic concerns I'd think. 

[Eddie]

I hate it with a vengeance, but not as much as I hate the reason we are in the situation we are.

[IlsonDerby]

11 hours ago, ram59 said:

I know what the idea is, but trying to do it with third tier players, is only going to end in tears. 

You have a CB on the corner of the six yard box, passing to the keeper in the middle, about 10 yards away, who then had to control the ball and decide who to pass it to. Meanwhile, there is a fit young striker 12 yards away, ready to sprint and close him down. All it needs is the pass to be slightly too fast or too slow or too much to the right or left, or for the keeper to miss control it, for it to end up in the back of our net.

I've seen it happen too many times with highly skilled players at Premier and international level, never mind lg1. Every time it cost us a goal, LR would say blame me, not the players, they're only following my instructions.

Third tier players? Hourihane, Bird, Smith, Waggy, Cashin, Ward, Fozzy, Sibley, McGildrick 

Were not talking Theo Robinson here. Plenty of technical talent he’s had at his disposal for the last year. 

13 hours ago, ram59 said:

I enjoy the theory of his style of play, although the practical application seems to be somewhat lacking ATM.

However, watching England yesterday, reminded me of watching Derby under LR. It was so slow, passing for the sake of it. For all the possession England created virtually nothing, with the goal coming from pure Warne ball, 50 yard diagonal long ball from by the half way line to a wide player, not unlike many balls from Cashin to NML. The most annoying aspect of LR ball was the ridiculous goal kicks from the CH to the keeper, inviting the opposing forwards to put us under pressure.

Hmm I wonder how less frustrating Rosenior football would have felt had we had McGoldrick for all his matches. We were pulling teams apart and creating really good opportunities. 20+ shots in each game. The only thing that stopped us picking up more points was abject finishing of good chances. 
 

If one of them goes in then teams have to come forward and we would have picked them off. 

[BathRam72]

I put "don't know" reason - because last year he tried to play a certain style with players he inherited.  This year "first team" I believe haven't had time to gel and let's face it one or two are injured anyway. I will reserve judgement in the latter part of this year.

[RoyMac5]

48 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

…Hmm I wonder how less frustrating Rosenior football would have felt had we had McGoldrick for all his matches. We were pulling teams apart and creating really good opportunities. 20+ shots in each game. The only thing that stopped us picking up more points was abject finishing of good chances. 

If one of them goes in then teams have to come forward and we would have picked them off. 

Yes, when I was bored silly with all the sideways passing, and all the glaring chances Collins missed, I didn’t know what we were missing in Didzy and just how good he would be at this level. Hindsight makes me more than a little sad now.

[Shuff264]

Its the worst football since Rowett, potentially even worse than that.

[Walkley Ram]

11 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I have no reason to question David Clowes due diligence, as I don’t know a) what it was that was done, nor b) what he hoped to achieve from the appointment. However, if Clowes did actually select Paul Warne because his primary objective was to bring an attractive style of football to Derby he will have failed spectacularly.

I think Clowes's main focus was to try and alter the perception of us as a club. Football aside, to the average fan we looked pretty rotten. We'd had "cheating" Mel, financial scandals, Rooney's hotel, the drink driving, etc etc etc. Getting Warne in, someone who seems like a genuinely lovely bloke, is all part of a much bigger effort to give us a totally new culture at the club. I understand it, and I fully agree with what he's doing. NSPCC, the colours thing, investing in the women, and getting in Warne who really is an embodiment of all of those values. I also assume that the 4 year contract for Warne is an attempt to shed the impression we're a full on merry-go-round club.

The only thing that seems to be going wrong at the moment is on the pitch. It's not quite terminal decline just yet. I'm sure the club are getting the message loud and clear that a growing section of the crowd are getting restless as our footballing direction. Let's hope Warne is brave enough, and savvy enough to do something about it. That's really all everyone wants, isn't it?

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

Third tier players? Hourihane, Bird, Smith, Waggy, Cashin, Ward, Fozzy, Sibley, McGildrick 

Were not talking Theo Robinson here. Plenty of technical talent he’s had at his disposal for the last year. 

Hmm I wonder how less frustrating Rosenior football would have felt had we had McGoldrick for all his matches. We were pulling teams apart and creating really good opportunities. 20+ shots in each game. The only thing that stopped us picking up more points was abject finishing of good chances. 
 

If one of them goes in then teams have to come forward and we would have picked them off. 

You've got to remember two things:

First, people's view of Rosenior's style goes back to (/is coloured by) his spells as coach under Cocu and as assistant manager with Rooney.

Second, the golden rule - every good result or performance during that second spell gets put down as Rooney's influence, every poor result or performance gets associated with Rosenior's coaching methods.

Even last season we still had one or two (not sure it was a widespread view) making it sound like some of the poorer performances under Warne were part of some sort of hangover from the way the players had been coached to play  ('over-coached' as they would put it).

Edited September 11, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[TomTom92]

52 minutes ago, oodledoodle said:

I think Clowes's main focus was to try and alter the perception of us as a club. Football aside, to the average fan we looked pretty rotten. We'd had "cheating" Mel, financial scandals, Rooney's hotel, the drink driving, etc etc etc. Getting Warne in, someone who seems like a genuinely lovely bloke, is all part of a much bigger effort to give us a totally new culture at the club. I understand it, and I fully agree with what he's doing. NSPCC, the colours thing, investing in the women, and getting in Warne who really is an embodiment of all of those values. I also assume that the 4 year contract for Warne is an attempt to shed the impression we're a full on merry-go-round club.

The only thing that seems to be going wrong at the moment is on the pitch. It's not quite terminal decline just yet. I'm sure the club are getting the message loud and clear that a growing section of the crowd are getting restless as our footballing direction. Let's hope Warne is brave enough, and savvy enough to do something about it. That's really all everyone wants, isn't it?

Very good point and i can only speak for myself, but i don't care about any of the nice things as long as we win on a saturday.

I know the two aren't exclusive, but ultimately i'd have the devil himself as manager if he got us 3 points on a saturday. 

I like PW as a person and i'm desperate for it to work, but other peoples fears about him being tactically poor etc. seem to be correct. I think maybe Derby is too big for him. I remember him making a passing comment about fans spotting Waggy in a pre season photo and he compared us to MI5. Richie Barker also told a story where he was surprised to see a young boy wearing a Derby shirt in the Yorkshire area, before he realised that Derby are followed throughout the country. 

We're not going to be patient especially in League 1, where there's an unjust feeling that we should be there in the first place. PW seems to be Nigel mk2 except Nige's recruitment was better and he had the luxury of being in the championship to keep us satisfied.