The Administration Thread

[DarkFruitsRam7]

For some reason the forum crops the picture so it looks like he’s only posted his bottom half!

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by DarkFruitsRam7

[Ghost of Clough]

36 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

I have seen a report that our debts are over £80 mill. If we said £30m Tax, £20m soft loans , £10m Beilik &Joz . Does that mean we owe Cocu and all the little businesses £20million?

Cocu's agents (Wasserman) are owed about £1m, of which I believe only £250k must be repaid.

As of 22/09/2021...

• HMRC - £26.08
• MSD - £20.00m
• Player registrations & Agents' fees and wages - £9.14m
• Trade creditors - £4.28m
• Accruals - £3.90m
• Other - £0.92m

Other 'debts' are:

• Shares (MM) - £153.91m
• Group - £19.02m (net)
• STs - £6.10m

You can ignore those three - MM wiped out, group ignored, STs are a 'debt' as they'll be repaid if the club is liquidated so also ignored.

 

Since then, we have paid a Bielik instalment (I estimate it to be £2m), taken out an additional £5m loan from MSD, and admin fees will likely be close to £5m.

Total debt therefore will be about £72m, plus whatever the two parasite clubs get (hopefully nothing).
Minimum to be paid to clear the debts is £46m (to avoid the 15 point penalty). But, £7m will be when transfer instalments fall due, and £20m could be left for the time being due to the stadium situation.

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Cocu's agents (Wasserman) are owed about £1m, of which I believe only £250k must be repaid.

As of 22/09/2021...

• HMRC - £26.08
• MSD - £20.00m
• Player registrations & Agents' fees and wages - £9.14m
• Trade creditors - £4.28m
• Accruals - £3.90m
• Other - £0.92m

Other 'debts' are:

• Shares (MM) - £153.91m
• Group - £19.02m (net)
• STs - £6.10m

You can ignore those three - MM wiped out, group ignored, STs are a 'debt' as they'll be repaid if the club is liquidated so also ignored.

 

Since then, we have paid a Bielik instalment (I estimate it to be £2m), taken out an additional £5m loan from MSD, and admin fees will likely be close to £5m.

Total debt therefore will be about £72m, plus whatever the two parasite clubs get (hopefully nothing).
Minimum to be paid to clear the debts is £46m (to avoid the 15 point penalty). But, £7m will be when transfer instalments fall due, and £20m could be left for the time being due to the stadium situation.

When you put it like that it seems a surprise that anyone at all is interested in throwing money at the Club. ?

[Animal is a Ram]

To offer a small positive - reports seem to indicate that HMRC will do a deal of some description, let's hope that to be true.

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Cocu's agents (Wasserman) are owed about £1m, of which I believe only £250k must be repaid.

As of 22/09/2021...

• HMRC - £26.08
• MSD - £20.00m
• Player registrations & Agents' fees and wages - £9.14m
• Trade creditors - £4.28m
• Accruals - £3.90m
• Other - £0.92m

Other 'debts' are:

• Shares (MM) - £153.91m
• Group - £19.02m (net)
• STs - £6.10m

You can ignore those three - MM wiped out, group ignored, STs are a 'debt' as they'll be repaid if the club is liquidated so also ignored.

 

Since then, we have paid a Bielik instalment (I estimate it to be £2m), taken out an additional £5m loan from MSD, and admin fees will likely be close to £5m.

Total debt therefore will be about £72m, plus whatever the two parasite clubs get (hopefully nothing).
Minimum to be paid to clear the debts is £46m (to avoid the 15 point penalty). But, £7m will be when transfer instalments fall due, and £20m could be left for the time being due to the stadium situation.

If Mel sells the stadium , either to buyers of DCFC or some third party, is it not the understanding that this will clear the MSD loan? 
 

so anyone buying the club really only needs about £20million to avoid penalties assuming the ambulance chaser get zip?

Edited February 1, 2022 by PistoldPete

[Ramos]

13 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

For some reason the forum crops the picture so it looks like he’s only posted his bottom half!

 

I actually thought Luciano was a decent left back. Grenet was awful that season. 

[simmoram1995]

54 minutes ago, David said:

Absolutely nothing to do with administration. Just made me laugh, not got the energy to start another topic on the parasites.

The hand clasp is very telling ?

[Jimbo Ram]

15 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

When you put it like that it seems a surprise that anyone at all is interested in throwing money at the Club. ?

To get a club the size of Derby at even 70 million seems a bargain to me, including the ground, training facilities etc....put in to context they will be getting all of that for about 3/4 of Jack Grealish......

[Tamworthram]

35 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I imagine the MSD has gone up - suspect this will be closer to £30m

Yes, I imagine it has. The figure for advanced season ticket sales will presumably have come down but not by much and certainly nowhere near the amount MSD has gone up.

[angieram]

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

Yes, I imagine it has. The figure for advanced season ticket sales will presumably have come down but not by much and certainly nowhere near the amount MSD has gone up.

The season ticket debt will have come down by how many matches we have played. Assuming we keep going, it will be zero by end of season.

Tbh, if they'd offered it me in November, I would have given mine up and bought again this season. I have been spending other money in support, so they're getting it anyway.

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, angieram said:

The season ticket debt will have come down by how many matches we have played. Assuming we keep going, it will be zero by end of season.

Tbh, if they'd offered it me in November, I would have given mine up and bought again this season. I have been spending other money in support, so they're getting it anyway.

I’m sure you meant no offence or to question my intelligence but I do of course know this. I just haven’t bothered to do the maths and work out how much it will have come down.

I’d renew tomorrow if that were possible.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Tamworthram

[RoyMac5]

 

48 hours?

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Stephen Mr Gibson Steve might start getting litigious if he sees that.

It's almost as bad as a chruch football team having a badge that could possibly resemble the Middlesbrough one if you didn't look particularly hard.

[Ghost of Clough]

26 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I’m sure you meant no offence or to question my intelligence but I do of course know this. I just haven’t bothered to do the maths and work out how much it will have come down.

I’d renew tomorrow if that were possible.

It works out at around £300k per game.

[StarterForTen]

48 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

To get a club the size of Derby at even 70 million seems a bargain to me, including the ground, training facilities etc....put in to context they will be getting all of that for about 3/4 of Jack Grealish......

I often compare Derby with Southampton. The two cities are of similar size, so are each club's stadia, both have good training/academy provision and both draw support from a region.

For clubs of that size and marketing reach, I would say Southampton are towards the top of the performance expectation curve and Derby towards (or even at?) the bottom.

Southampton have recently changed their majority owner in a deal that values the club at around £220m. I don't think it is unfair to suggest that had Derby been in Southampton's position, a similar valuation would be expected for the Rams. Equally, I think it fair to suggest that going beyond that level (while not impossible) would be a stretch. In other words, 'becoming Southampton' is not an unreasonable ceiling of expectation for any potential owner to work to.

So, if a new owner were to acquire a 'reset' DCFC - including the freehold of the stadium and long leases on Moor Farm - for an overall outlay of sub £50m it could be argued that there is considerable investment headroom before the 'project cost' becomes untenable. An acquisitions expert like Mike Ashley will be aware of this and would be looking to reposition the 'DCFC business' to the Southampton FC level through justifiable investment inputs. Even investing £150m in the project would still offer good value... IF successful.

Of course, that is a big 'IF' attached to this thinking! The investment has to work!! As Mel has shown us so conclusively, investing £150m in no way guarantees the transition I have outlined.

But the entrepreneurs associated with a potential takeover will ALWAYS believe they can do it better than the person before and believe 100% that the road to becoming Southampton will be successfully travelled.

Which is why I have always believed a takeover will happen because, as @Jimbo Ramhas said, buying DCFC right now is a bargain!

Edited February 1, 2022 by StarterForTen

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

6 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

I often compare Derby with Southampton. The two cities are of similar size, so are each club's stadia, both have good training/academy provision and both draw support from a region.

For club's of that size and marketing reach, I would say Southampton are towards the top of the performance expectation curve and Derby towards (or even at?) the bottom.

Southampton have recently changed their majority owner in a deal that values the club at around £220m. I don't think it is unfair to suggest that had Derby been in Southampton's position, a similar valuation would be expected for the Rams. Equally, I think it fair to suggest that going beyond that level (while not impossible) would be a stretch. In other words, 'becoming Southampton' is not an unreasonable ceiling of expectation for any potential owner to work to.

So, if a new owner were to acquire a 'reset' DCFC - including the freehold of the stadium and long leases on Moor Farm - for an overall outlay of sub £50m it could be argued that there is considerable investment headroom before the 'project cost' becomes untenable. An acquisitions expert like Mike Ashley will be aware of this and would be looking to reposition the 'DCFC business' to the Southampton FC level through justifiable investment inputs. Even investing £150m in the project would still offer good value... IF successful.

Of course, that is a big 'IF' attached to this thinking! The investment has to work!! As Mel has shown us so conclusively, investing £150m in no way guarantees the transition I have outlined.

But the entrepreneurs associated with a potential takeover will ALWAYS believe they can do it better than the person before and believe 100% that the road to becoming Southampton will be successfully travelled.

Which is why I have always believed a takeover will happen because, as @Jimbo Ramhas said, buying DCFC right now os a bargain!

I think a lot of the midlands teams are comparable. Southampton seems to be more isolated and I guess can have a wider reach in taking very young players through their academy system. Lots of clubs in Derby’s area. 
Southampton seem to produce some very good players but can never hold on to them so they’re unlikely to do ever threaten the elite in the Prem in the near future. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

3 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

I often compare Derby with Southampton. The two cities are of similar size, so are each club's stadia, both have good training/academy provision and both draw support from a region.

For club's of that size and marketing reach, I would say Southampton are towards the top of the performance expectation curve and Derby towards (or even at?) the bottom.

Southampton have recently changed their majority owner in a deal that values the club at around £220m. I don't think it is unfair to suggest that had Derby been in Southampton's position, a similar valuation would be expected for the Rams. Equally, I think it fair to suggest that going beyond that level (while not impossible) would be a stretch. In other words, 'becoming Southampton' is not an unreasonable ceiling of expectation for any potential owner to work to.

So, if a new owner were to acquire a 'reset' DCFC - including the freehold of the stadium and long leases on Moor Farm - for an overall outlay of sub £50m it could be argued that there is considerable investment headroom before the 'project cost' becomes untenable. An acquisitions expert like Mike Ashley will be aware of this and would be looking to reposition the 'DCFC business' to the Southampton FC level through justifiable investment inputs. Even investing £150m in the project would still offer good value... IF successful.

Of course, that is a big 'IF' attached to this thinking! The investment has to work!! As Mel has shown us so conclusively, investing £150m in no way guarantees the transition I have outlined.

But the entrepreneurs associated with a potential takeover will ALWAYS believe they can do it better than the person before and believe 100% that the road to becoming Southampton will be successfully travelled.

Which is why I have always believed a takeover will happen because, as @Jimbo Ramhas said, buying DCFC right now os a bargain!

Love the positivity and think you're right.

However, there are issues and complications with DCFC and until a deal is done, the risk of things falling apart is still there.

And any investor looking at DCFC will likely also look at other championship and maybe league 1 clubs and think there's a similar potential with fewer issues to resolve.

A lot depends on how much the debts can he squeezed in the insolvency (particularly HMRC), resolving the Boro and Wycombe issues, risk of relegation to league 1 and so on.

I think we'll be ok and get new ownership in place but the worrying isn't going to stop for me until it's done.

[RadioactiveWaste]

2 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

I think a lot of the midlands teams are comparable. Southampton seems to be more isolated and I guess can have a wider reach in taking very young players through their academy system. Lots of clubs in Derby’s area. 
Southampton seem to produce some very good players but can never hold on to them so they’re unlikely to do ever threaten the elite in the Prem in the near future. 

By the same token, both wolves and Leicester have come from basket case to middling premier League clubs in the Midlands.

We're not competing regionally with much bigger clubs (although granted some are much better positioned)

[B4ev6is]

Well I think that panel thing will go in our favour and I think with some luck wycombe and boro claims will thrown out and say Derby dont owe you a penny and that debt should be reduce by quite a lot.

[rammieib]

I actually think circa £48M to own a club, press the reset button, own a stadium (and a training ground?), have Wayne Rooney as your manager, inherit a Class 1 academy is very good value. The 'potential' with the size of fan base and operating infrastructure is also very good in my opinion.

One of the red herrings in the room though.... we are still circa £1.5-£1.75m a month wage bill (I hope this includes the complete DCFC payroll), £5-7m for running the academy (I'm sure some costs are here are duplicated), running cost of a stadium and training ground and I imagine a further £5m in day to day expenses for none football purchases made. So all in, that is costs of £30 Million per annum.

Revenue wise - Circa £10m in TV payments, Circa £9m in gate receipts (Don't forget VAT folks!), maybe another £2-4m in commercial income, this still leaves an annual deficit of around £7 Million. 

All of this is before we even think about paying money for players (or selling players for money).

So any new owner who I think inherits a really good club, is also being asked to put £7m down each year to subsidise the losses. This is only really recoupled when the promise land is reached, and can you reach the promise land without spending on better players and then you reach the inevitable catch-22 that Morris fell into and shamefully, ran away from.

Obviously Quantama will be asking potential new owners to ensure they have the funds to run us for minimum 2 years I think they requested. So the asking price in reality just goes from £48m (£28m with no stadium) plus £14m to £62m. So it is now starting to become a little more expensive....

You really want an owner in my eyes with £200m plus. Not to throw money at it but to in essence provide me with confidence behind the risks of owning us.