sage Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 37 minutes ago, Jourdan said: We do this dance a lot. There are tens of managers out there who could get us playing good football and winning more than 1 in 7. The club is not in a position to sack the manager, so there is no point naming names. Maybe Hughton or Cook would have done a better job. Who really knows? Does what they have done at Forest and Ipswich wipe out the rest of their managerial careers where they have done good work by and large? Now if they were consistently failing in their jobs, I could understand you. But even the very best managers will have blemishes on their records or take on the wrong fit from time to time. As for recruitment, it depends on who you ask, doesn’t it? Some would say that Cocu and Rooney have brought in good players. Others would probably disagree. Burley had a fantastic goalscorer like Rasiak and fantastic players like Idiakez because he had a canny scouting team to recruit such players. Take Rasiak, he was signed on a free transfer. Idiakez too. OK, the market is more limited these days but if under the Three Amigos we were able to unearth quality, why not now? Because we can only give 1 year contracts on 4.5k a week Or 6 month loans with no loan fee Would Rasiak and Idiakez come on a 1 year contract on those wages? would they balls! IslandExile, tomsdubs and JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, sage said: Because we can only give 1 year contracts on 4.5k a week Or 6 month loans with no loan fee Would Rasiak and Idiakez come on a 1 year contract on those wages? would they balls! Has anybody asked them? ossieram, Chester40, IslandExile and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Crewton said: That wasn't the bone of contention. You claimed something that was clearly incorrect and are now obfuscating to avoid having to admit it. Pathetic. Where are you actually getting your figures from? I make it: Wazza-45 games, 11 wins, 13 draws and 21 defeats-win% 24.4, 1.02 pts per game Hughton-53 games, 14 wins, 17 draws and 22 defeats, win % 26.4, 1.113 points per game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Where are you actually getting your figures from? I make it: Wazza-45 games, 11 wins, 13 draws and 21 defeats-win% 24.4, 1.02 pts per game Hughton-53 games, 14 wins, 17 draws and 22 defeats, win % 26.4, 1.113 points per game Where are you getting YOUR figures from?? Rooney's been in charge for 40 league games (45 points) , Hughton 49 (53 points). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 9 hours ago, Jourdan said: Good coaching? An eye for talent? Tactical prowess? An ability to manage in difficult situations? Does all of that count for nothing? Or can attractive, winning football only be achieved in optimal settings? Now I totally agree with you that the club is in a far from healthy position, but we won’t be the first nor the last club in the Championship to face adversity, turmoil, and be disadvantaged in some respects. Of course the working conditions for both managers have been far from ideal, but that is part and parcel of football. Aside from Marco Silva at Fulham, I doubt there is a single manager in the Championship who is content with what they have, nor a single manager who doesn’t have problems to contend with. The point is, good managers can find a way to make the best of a difficult situation and succeed in spite of their circumstances. Look at what Burley did here in 2004-05, as a prime example. Clearly we have let our standards diminish when 7 points from 7 games is deemed a promising start and there is a widely held belief that this is the best we can hope for. The Burley comparison is an interesting one, but as @sage says he had more wriggle room in the transfer market to bring in the likes of Rasiak, Idiakez, Smith, Bisgaard. That summer transfer window transformed us. Rooney hasn’t been able to do that. If you do the Burley comparison then you also have to look at 03-04 season. That was a poor a squad as I remember and probably a more similar situation to now. There were several times that season we looked like we were certainties to go down, but again he could use transfers to change the squad and that’s what kept us up - bringing in Pesch, Leon Osman and Marco Reich, without those signings I’m convinced we would’ve gone down. Rooney cannot right now make any transfers, he has to get the best out of what he has. Which brings us back to Rooney, it’s a redundant argument as he’s staying anyway but anyhow. Has he done anything to deserve the sack? Last season yes, that awful run, the football we were playing, we were very lucky to stay up and he was lucky to keep his job. Most people are agreed on this. However he kept his job so we move onto this season. Has he done enough to stay in the job this season? Firstly factor in we have a weaker squad than we finished last season with, certainly depth wise and we’ve had injuries/suspensions early on. 1 win in 7? Not great, but 16th in the league and 2 defeats in 7? Ok. Style of football is a marked improvement on what we saw last season, so that’s another tick at the moment. We will see how it goes but we shouldn’t be calling for his head yet (not saying you are by the way and it’s irrelevant anyway he’s going nowhere) Would another manager do better? Who knows? We’ve had a lucky escape with Hughton and Cook, are they coaches who will make an existing team better I’m really not sure. I will say though that in times where you’re hands are tied and you can’t sign players and you have a small squad combined with turmoil off the pitch, you need a manager who is a strong leader who can galvanise and inspire his team, a leader who his team is going to follow to the end. The one thing this early part of the season has showed me in abundance and it was epitomised by the effort of Tuesday night is that this team is right behind Rooney and they are all playing for him as one. That is the single most important thing right now in our situation, Forest weren’t playing for their manager and look where they are with significant superior resources as it stands. IslandExile, angieram and nick_d 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreveram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Bookies are seldom wrong, Derby are favourites for relegation, we are currently in 16th place florist are bottom Tyler Durden and RoyMac5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 29 minutes ago, Crewton said: Where are you getting YOUR figures from?? Rooney's been in charge for 40 league games (45 points) , Hughton 49 (53 points). Mine are their overall records, maybe includes some cup games......however you look at it both very poor..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Mine are their overall records, maybe includes some cup games......however you look at it both very poor..... Factor in wage bill and money spent on Forest’s squad - it is extremely poor for Hughton. Rooney has had a tougher job whether you think he’s done ok with it or not. Edited September 17, 2021 by BramcoteRam84 Crewton and RoyMac5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said: Factor in wage bill and money spent on Forest’s squad - it is extremely poor for Hughton. Rooney has had a tougher job whether you think he’s done ok with it or not. Just over a point per game average, 24% win record, 2 wins in 24??? I am just hoping that if MM can sell the club and the new owners will look at this and decide to bring their own man in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Mine are their overall records, maybe includes some cup games......however you look at it both very poor..... Do we get points for cup games now? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossieram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Just over a point per game average, 24% win record, 2 wins in 24??? I am just hoping that if MM can sell the club and the new owners will look at this and decide to bring their own man in. I'm hoping they look at how Rooney has stuck with the job during this period and decide to give a chance once the embargo has finished and give him the chance to build a team. Carnero, richinspain, angieram and 3 others 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 I think that's fair @ossieram - assuming that there is a takeover soon then he should be given his original contract duration in full. ossieram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, Crewton said: Do we get points for cup games now? ? Hughton must have done better in the cup games than Wazza, both terrible records. Give it a couple of games and my original comment won't be too far off....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Jourdan said: We do this dance a lot. There are tens of managers out there who could get us playing good football and winning more than 1 in 7. The club is not in a position to sack the manager, so there is no point naming names. Maybe Hughton or Cook would have done a better job. Who really knows? Does what they have done at Forest and Ipswich wipe out the rest of their managerial careers where they have done good work by and large? Now if they were consistently failing in their jobs, I could understand you. But even the very best managers will have blemishes on their records or take on the wrong fit from time to time. As for recruitment, it depends on who you ask, doesn’t it? Some would say that Cocu and Rooney have brought in good players. Others would probably disagree. Burley had a fantastic goalscorer like Rasiak and fantastic players like Idiakez because he had a canny scouting team to recruit such players. Take Rasiak, he was signed on a free transfer. Idiakez too. OK, the market is more limited these days but if under the Three Amigos we were able to unearth quality, why not now? The players signed by Rooney may turn out to be fantastic, but they hardly required much imagination or research. Perhaps 7 points from 7 is better than people feared, but what is there to fear? It’s the Championship. It’s wide open. Teams beat the odds all of the time. Who is being unrealistic? No-one is expecting us to beat the likes of Fulham or WBA. It’s not as if I am saying it was two points dropped on Tuesday. But personally I would expect us to fare better and show more vs the likes of Birmingham, Huddersfield, Peterborough and Forest. 2 points from 12, when one of those teams was in League 1 and the other three were fighting relegation last season, surely we ought to be kicking ourselves? Exactly. Who really knows? Which calls into question your first point: “there are tens of managers out there……”. We don’t know if there are any managers out there (available, within our budget and prepared to come to Derby) who could get us playing better. RoyMac5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: Which calls into question your first point: “there are tens of managers out there……”. We don’t know if there are any managers out there (available, within our budget and prepared to come to Derby) who could get us playing better. There'll be loads of them out there willing to put their reputation on the line, I mean, Hughton for starters? Tamworthram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: There'll be loads of them out there willing to put their reputation on the line, I mean, Hughton for starters? I would probably still take him........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 59 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: I think that's fair @ossieram - assuming that there is a takeover soon then he should be given his original contract duration in full. Don't be silly,that's not the Derby way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 25 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: I would probably still take him........ Whatever turns you on ? Jimbo Ram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 hours ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: I admire Rooney's commitment to the club in it's current state, because plenty of other managers would have walked. For that I am grateful that we have him. I also have quite significant reservations about his ability to win football matches as a manager. It is possible to hold both of the above opinions. But why would he walk? Of course the club is in a shambolic state and it's hardly an ideal set up for his first job in management, but when you think about it he is actually in a no-lose situation. Get relegated...and most people will blame the shambolic state we are in and credit Wayne for giving it a go under such difficult circumstances. And if we stay up? Well then he will have performed near miracles, and his reputation as a manager will be hugely enhanced. Basically this season is a well-paid free hit for him, and undoubtedly will provide him with good experience whatever happens. So I don't feel any gratitude for someone doing something that's in their own self interest. Nor do I blame him for sticking around, it's the sensible decision for a young inexperienced manager to do. Rev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Highgate said: But why would he walk? Of course the club is in a shambolic state and it's hardly an ideal set up for his first job in management, but when you think about it he is actually in a no-lose situation. Get relegated...and most people will blame the shambolic state we are in and credit Wayne for giving it a go under such difficult circumstances. And if we stay up? Well then he will have performed near miracles, and his reputation as a manager will be hugely enhanced. Basically this season is a well-paid free hit for him, and undoubtedly will provide him with good experience whatever happens. So I don't feel any gratitude for someone doing something that's in their own self interest. Nor do I blame him for sticking around, it's the sensible decision for a young inexperienced manager to do. Totally agree, if he walked where would he go? He is VERY lucky to be the manager of our football club…. Kingpin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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