Time to walk away Wayne

[Jimbo Ram]

34 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Most of it bought about by posters who use Cocu to hit out at Rooney - you know it's pointless, Cocu's gone, fab bloke, etc but gone. Left no legacy, move on. 

Pointless, you can’t stop talking about your Wazza ?

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, Foreveram said:

Which is exactly my point about statistics,the two games just do not compare, at Brentford the team were boo’ed off at halftime and people were leaving and at West Brom they were cheered to the end.

That's maybe because even with approaching identical stats for both games in one of them we scraped a nil nil and the other we were soundly thrashed. 

Just the same as the win percentage or points per game or whatever for Hughton and Rooney are very comparable. 

[Jourdan]

Cocu v Rooney is a pretty redundant debate at this point.

We have seen glimpses, flashes, moments of promise under both, but ultimately neither of them have been good enough over a sustained period of time and both have experienced particularly barren slumps in form.

I wouldn’t be in a hurry to defend either of them.

Imagine if we had a manager who played attractive, winning football.

[IslandExile]

20 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Cocu v Rooney is a pretty redundant debate at this point.

We have seen glimpses, flashes, moments of promise under both, but ultimately neither of them have been good enough over a sustained period of time and both have experienced particularly barren slumps in form.

I wouldn’t be in a hurry to defend either of them.

Imagine if we had a manager who played attractive, winning football.

I'd say what's common to both Cocu and Rooney is that - through no fault of their own - they inherited the worst squad we've had for years at a club in absolute turmoil, spiralling downwards.

To play "attractive, winning football" I would argue the manager needs a firmer foundation than this club currently provides.

Edited September 16, 2021 by IslandExile

[sage]

31 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Cocu v Rooney is a pretty redundant debate at this point.

We have seen glimpses, flashes, moments of promise under both, but ultimately neither of them have been good enough over a sustained period of time and both have experienced particularly barren slumps in form.

I wouldn’t be in a hurry to defend either of them.

Imagine if we had a manager who played attractive, winning football.

The football we have played this season, bar the West Brom game, is about as attractive as you can get from these players.

Keep smiling 

[uttoxram75]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

The football we have played this season, bar the West Brom game, is about as attractive as you can get from these players.

Keep smiling 

I agree, we are trying to play a bit of football, its slow progress but you can see what Rooney is doing with the squad at his disposal. 

I'm fairly confident we will continue to improve and the players will be encouraged to be braver accepting the ball under pressure. 

 

[Jourdan]

3 minutes ago, sage said:

The football we have played this season, bar the West Brom game, is about as attractive as you can get from these players.

Keep smiling 

I imagine the same was said in 2013 before McClaren took over from Clough.

It is pure assumption to say that Rooney is getting the absolute maximum out of the players.

Truth is you just never know what another manager could do. 

I just don’t see the point in getting worked up defending two managers who won’t live long in the memory where this club is concerned. Not in a positive sense, at least.

PS. Winning tends to elicit smiles, doesn’t it?

[sage]

39 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

 

PS. Winning tends to elicit smiles, doesn’t it?

Rudyard Kipling may disagree.

 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

I'd say what's common to both Cocu and Rooney is that - through no fault of their own - they inherited the worst squad we've had for years at a club in absolute turmoil, spiralling downwards.

To play "attractive, winning football" I would argue the manager needs a firmer foundation than this club currently provides.

Good coaching? An eye for talent? Tactical prowess? An ability to manage in difficult situations?

Does all of that count for nothing? Or can attractive, winning football only be achieved in optimal settings?

Now I totally agree with you that the club is in a far from healthy position, but we won’t be the first nor the last club in the Championship to face adversity, turmoil, and be disadvantaged in some respects.

Of course the working conditions for both managers have been far from ideal, but that is part and parcel of football.

Aside from Marco Silva at Fulham, I doubt there is a single manager in the Championship who is content with what they have, nor a single manager who doesn’t have problems to contend with.

The point is, good managers can find a way to make the best of a difficult situation and succeed in spite of their circumstances. Look at what Burley did here in 2004-05, as a prime example.

Clearly we have let our standards diminish when 7 points from 7 games is deemed a promising start and there is a widely held belief that this is the best we can hope for.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Jourdan

[IslandExile]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Good coaching? An eye for talent? Tactical prowess? An ability to manage in difficult situations?

Does all of that count for nothing? Or can attractive, winning football only be achieved in optimal settings?

Now I totally agree with you that the club is in a far from healthy position, but we won’t be the first nor the last club in the Championship to face adversity, turmoil, and be disadvantaged in some respects.

Of course the working conditions for both managers have been far from ideal, but that is part and parcel of football.

Aside from Marco Silva at Fulham, I doubt there is a single manager in the Championship who is content with what they have, nor a single manager who doesn’t have problems to contend with.

The point is, good managers can find a way to make the best of a difficult situation and succeed in spite of their circumstances. Look at what Burley did here in 2004-05, as a prime example.

Clearly we have let our standards diminish when 7 points from 7 games is deemed a promising start and there is a widely held belief that this is the best we can hope for.

"An eye for talent"?

Both Cocu and Rooney have been praised for what they've been able to bring in.

Burley, "a prime example", had a fantastic goalscorer Gregorz Rasiak that would make a huge difference to the Cocu/Rooney sides. Idiakez scored regularly aswell. Burley had other quality players too.

I'll give you a better example - Brian Clough, simply the best manager our club has ever had. Struggled, certainly results wise, in the first full season until he was able to bring in his own players, spending money on fees, and mould the team the way he wanted.

7 points from 7 games isn't what any of us would regard as a good start in normal circumstances but given where the club is right now, it's far better than many of us feared.

Having unrealistic expectations will inevitably lead to being perpetually negative about the team's performance.

Name a "good manager", currently available, who you think would have us playing "attractive winning football".

Many that have voiced criticism of Cocu and others that didn't want Rooney as manager, suggested either Chris Hughton or Paul Cook would do a better job.....? 

Edit to add:

You say "An ability to manage in difficult situations?"...... Both Cocu and Rooney have managed the team with dignity (hotel rooms aside) throughout exceptionally difficult situations. To imply otherwise is very harsh.

Edited September 17, 2021 by IslandExile

[islandram]

7 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Cocu v Rooney is a pretty redundant debate at this point.

We have seen glimpses, flashes, moments of promise under both, but ultimately neither of them have been good enough over a sustained period of time and both have experienced particularly barren slumps in form.

I wouldn’t be in a hurry to defend either of them.

Imagine if we had a manager who played attractive, winning football.

imagine if we had a squad that could go out and play attractive football without people on various sites just sniping all the time. 

[Spanish]

9 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Are the 'Cocu boys' still giving it large? It's almost like they weren't Derby fans but Cocu fans. ?

Don’t forget Roy he was a very nice man, apparently

[Crewton]

9 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Not really, both dire that’s for sure ?

That wasn't the bone of contention. You claimed something that was clearly incorrect and are now obfuscating to avoid having to admit it. Pathetic. 

[Jourdan]

5 hours ago, IslandExile said:

"An eye for talent"?

Both Cocu and Rooney have been praised for what they've been able to bring in.

Burley, "a prime example", had a fantastic goalscorer Gregorz Rasiak that would make a huge difference to the Cocu/Rooney sides. Idiakez scored regularly aswell. Burley had other quality players too.

I'll give you a better example - Brian Clough, simply the best manager our club has ever had. Struggled, certainly results wise, in the first full season until he was able to bring in his own players, spending money on fees, and mould the team the way he wanted.

7 points from 7 games isn't what any of us would regard as a good start in normal circumstances but given where the club is right now, it's far better than many of us feared.

Having unrealistic expectations will inevitably lead to being perpetually negative about the team's performance.

Name a "good manager", currently available, who you think would have us playing "attractive winning football".

Many that have voiced criticism of Cocu and others that didn't want Rooney as manager, suggested either Chris Hughton or Paul Cook would do a better job.....? 

Edit to add:

You say "An ability to manage in difficult situations?"...... Both Cocu and Rooney have managed the team with dignity (hotel rooms aside) throughout exceptionally difficult situations. To imply otherwise is very harsh.

We do this dance a lot. There are tens of managers out there who could get us playing good football and winning more than 1 in 7. 

The club is not in a position to sack the manager, so there is no point naming names.

Maybe Hughton or Cook would have done a better job. Who really knows? Does what they have done at Forest and Ipswich wipe out the rest of their managerial careers where they have done good work by and large? Now if they were consistently failing in their jobs, I could understand you. But even the very best managers will have blemishes on their records or take on the wrong fit from time to time.

As for recruitment, it depends on who you ask, doesn’t it? Some would say that Cocu and Rooney have brought in good players. Others would probably disagree.

Burley had a fantastic goalscorer like Rasiak and fantastic players like Idiakez because he had a canny scouting team to recruit such players.

Take Rasiak, he was signed on a free transfer. Idiakez too.

OK, the market is more limited these days but if under the Three Amigos we were able to unearth quality, why not now?

The players signed by Rooney may turn out to be fantastic, but they hardly required much imagination or research.

Perhaps 7 points from 7 is better than people feared, but what is there to fear? It’s the Championship. It’s wide open. Teams beat the odds all of the time.

Who is being unrealistic? No-one is expecting us to beat the likes of Fulham or WBA. It’s not as if I am saying it was two points dropped on Tuesday.

But personally I would expect us to fare better and show more vs the likes of Birmingham, Huddersfield, Peterborough and Forest.

2 points from 12, when one of those teams was in League 1 and the other three were fighting relegation last season, surely we ought to be kicking ourselves?

[Crewton]

The great unknown is what kind of player another manager would have been able to attract given the restrictions placed on our recruitment. No-one can answer that question, but I think it's pertinent. 

[RoyMac5]

21 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

But personally I would expect us to fare better and show more vs the likes of Birmingham, Huddersfield, Peterborough and Forest.

All of whom have better strikers than we do!

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

I admire Rooney's commitment to the club in it's current state, because plenty of other managers would have walked. For that I am grateful that we have him.

I also have quite significant reservations about his ability to win football matches as a manager.

It is possible to hold both of the above opinions.

[Jimbo Ram]

51 minutes ago, Crewton said:

That wasn't the bone of contention. You claimed something that was clearly incorrect and are now obfuscating to avoid having to admit it. Pathetic. 

You sound pretty desperate, Wazza has the very slightly better points per game ratio, Hughton the better win %, they both have done awfully, are we at least agreed on that.....

[tomsdubs]

13 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Hughton has the higher win %

OK so let's post the most important stats.

Hughton had about 4x the wage budget

Hughton had no transfer embargo

Hughton had no boardroom calamity

Hughton hasnt had his best player do his knee ligaments.

[Jimbo Ram]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

All of whom have better strikers than we do!

Do you stand by your previous comment that football managers should be judged by results Macca, your reason why Cocu had to go? Two wins in 24 games for Wazza, is that good enough under your own criteria?