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The position with HMRC


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In all manner of threads there's mention of money owed to HMRC but I've not seen anything saying how much, when it became due, why it became due and what happens now. It seems as if everyone knows apart from me, but I thought I'd open a thread so some of you on the forum can explain to those of us who have been slow to catch on.

Thanks

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It's not been confirmed exactly what it is, but there was a Daily Mail article reporting a HMRC bill a while back:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9580807/Potential-Derby-County-buyers-WALKING-AWAY-discovering-debts-60MILLION.html

I don't know the accuracy of the figures - Derby respond by calling the overarching £60m quoted a "worst case scenario" figure - or whether the figures quoted are still the same now, but the response from Morris suggests that the money owed to HMRC relates to the club agreeing to defer PAYE taxes during the Covid period, and suggests Derby are far from unique in this regard. 

That doesn't make it clear how much is owed, when the money is owed, what the EFL's problem is (Have the club missed dates for deferred payments? Are the EFL just being petty hard-asses with their rules again? Both seem equally possible IMO), or anything like that, though. It might even be the case that that issue is now sorted and the current HMRC issue is something entirely different, but that's the best we've got to go off, as is.

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Other posters have stated (in their opinion) that it's NOT anywhere near the £20 million that we owe HMRC as quoted in some news sources if that's helpful as again in their opinion HMRC would in no way allow that size of debt to accumulate without taking some decisive action before it got to that point.

They didn't however further (or more than likely not able to) quantify how much the monies owed ACTUALLY was to HMRC which seems to be the consistent piece of information which is lacking. 

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2 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Thanks @JfR. The beginnings of an explanation. If anyone has more detail, step forward!

Some of this I would view as privileged information and I don’t expect to know everything about the club in that level of detail unless I am willing to buy a seat at the table.  
 

What we all know is that we are the only club in the championship reported for this offence and some may want to assume that this is down to the EFL being beastly.  I have nothing factual to base the view that there are other clubs in the same position who have so far not been reported so I think it is currently likely that we are the only club to have breached this rule.

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8 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

In all manner of threads there's mention of money owed to HMRC but I've not seen anything saying how much, when it became due, why it became due and what happens now. It seems as if everyone knows apart from me, but I thought I'd open a thread so some of you on the forum can explain to those of us who have been slow to catch on.

Thanks

I asked Nico to explain the situation and he said “ Derby County is a football club that was formed in 1884 as an offshoot of Derbyshire County Cricket Club when the latter needed funds to build a new cricket pavilion. William Morley, a railway clerk from Nottingham proposed the formation …”

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58 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

I asked Nico to explain the situation and he said “ Derby County is a football club that was formed in 1884 as an offshoot of Derbyshire County Cricket Club when the latter needed funds to build a new cricket pavilion. William Morley, a railway clerk from Nottingham proposed the formation …”

I asked Nico to explain too and she said "In what costume shall the poor girl wear to all tomorrow's parties?" Thanks for nothing luv.

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8 hours ago, JfR said:

Derby respond by calling the overarching £60m quoted a "worst case scenario" figure -

From this club statement, doesn’t sound like this is PAYE. And if it was, other clubs would be in the same boat. Sound more like a dispute about historical returns 

Edited by kevinhectoring
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It must be pretty bad. They sent round the Head Honcho yesterday making it clear that it was time to pay up. The guy on the right is holding a baseball bat behind her back. Nasty family, not to be messed with.

 

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Edited by i-Ram
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If you book an 81m profit for the sale of ground/land, surely there's the question of a) stamp duty (buying party) and b) corporation tax (profit for selling party). I'm more than likely missing something here as it's not a case of 19% of 81m because that profit would be in the bucket with everything else and offset against the wider losses. Nobody has a scooby do they? 

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41 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

Nobody knows - all speculation. The only definite is that it must be different to other Championship clubs as it is listed on the embargo causes for us only. 

Yet one might ask why are other clubs not on the naughty list for that very reason - if it’s good enough for one club it should be all of those doing it or it’s simply a dereliction of duty by the EFL by not having a rule that makes clubs tell them.

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34 minutes ago, TheSlate said:

If you book an 81m profit for the sale of ground/land, surely there's the question of a) stamp duty (buying party) and b) corporation tax (profit for selling party). I'm more than likely missing something here as it's not a case of 19% of 81m because that profit would be in the bucket with everything else and offset against the wider losses. Nobody has a scooby do they? 

It cannot be the stamp duty on the ground as that would be owed by Mel (the buyer) and not DCFC (the seller). I have no idea the amount owed, but (and I think @Spanishsaid this) it cannot be in the tens of millions. If you take 20% as an average guideline (company tax) then we are talking a maximum of 4-5 Million and I doubt if its anything like that. 

Also is this likely (and I am not ITK) to be an amount that due to Covid etc that we are paying to the HMRC in instalments agreed by them but seen as a breach by the EFL, similar to the company accounts?    

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50 minutes ago, TheSlate said:

If you book an 81m profit for the sale of ground/land, surely there's the question of a) stamp duty (buying party) and b) corporation tax (profit for selling party). I'm more than likely missing something here as it's not a case of 19% of 81m because that profit would be in the bucket with everything else and offset against the wider losses. Nobody has a scooby do they? 

No stamp duty payable as it is an intra-group transaction, there would only be stamp duty payable if the ground was subsequently sold outside of the group.

Very unlikely to be corporation tax given the level of historical losses which have been accumulated and can be offset against future gains.

My guess is the majority of it is PAYE.

It was rumoured that MM was having to find £1.2m per month for wages, my gut feeling is that this was only covering net payments and that the PAYE element has been left to accrue.

Cant imagine that our VAT bill is much, as we only sold 8000 season tickets.

This is just my opinion though and is not backed up with amy evidence.

 

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