Paul Warne

[Day]

38 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

What do you think competitive sport is?

You didn't ask me, although my answer would be it depends who you are asking.

Ask fans, it's entertainment but also a release from everyday life, supporting professionals in their journey for success.

With that, you develop an emotional attachment, a sense of belonging. It's nice feeling, it's not they won, it's we won and it's not a feeling everybody gets to experience outside of football. It's something to look forward to at the end of the week.

However the professionals are simply out to win, as winning brings financial rewards, career progression which in turn brings bigger financial rewards. It's why you see managers now that would rather go out and spend for the here and now as very rarely are they given a chance to bring youngsters through.

Paul Warne won't honestly care where this club is in 10 years, if Liverpool came knocking tomorrow he would be off and you wouldn't blame him. His career, his wealth, his family, he owes us nothing. However managers live and die by their results, no manager will avoid receiving his P45 losing 5-0 but did you see the rush keeper doing Cruyff turns.

So yeah, it really depends on who you are asking and there is a balance to be had, it's harder to strike that balance outside of the financial possibilities the elite clubs have, the ability of the professionals decreases rapidly the further down you go. Where you have a player like Beckham that could stick the ball on your door bell from 50 yards away, we're working with players that would find it difficult to hit the same house.

David Clowes I would imagine wants to win, see a return on his investment, however will be fully aware that outside of the Premier League ticket sales account for a large chunk of the clubs revenue, being the clubs "customers" and I hate calling us that, it's a business though, he needs to ensure we find value in the ticket price.

If I continue, I'll be here all day and way off the actual question. 

[Mucker1884]

On 21/04/2024 at 10:17, Steve How Hard? said:

Is this some weird kink where you make love to a bread roll? 🍞 🍆

Bread roll for you maybe.

Some of use a baguette!  🤓

 

 

 

 

EDIT:
No, not baguette... the other french one... petit pain, is it?  😕

Edited April 22 by Mucker1884

[Nuwtfly]

11 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

The modifier you're missing out on is the emotional component for a lot of people.

I go to Derby games because I like watching football and I have an emotional connection to the club. I don't expect to be entertained, because it's not guaranteed.

 

But you are there for entertainment aren't you? You're there to watch a sport you love, a team you've got a connection to etc etc.

I appreciate this has become a somewhat philosophical debate now but the purpose of sport is for entertainment as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise it would be called exercise. It's a multi-billion dollar global industry because it is primarily entertainment. 

12 minutes ago, David said:

You didn't ask me, although my answer would be it depends who you are asking.

Ask fans, it's entertainment but also a release from everyday life, supporting professionals in their journey for success.

With that, you develop an emotional attachment, a sense of belonging. It's nice feeling, it's not they won, it's we won and it's not a feeling everybody gets to experience outside of football. It's something to look forward to at the end of the week.

However the professionals are simply out to win, as winning brings financial rewards, career progression which in turn brings bigger financial rewards. It's why you see managers now that would rather go out and spend for the here and now as very rarely are they given a chance to bring youngsters through.

Paul Warne won't honestly care where this club is in 10 years, if Liverpool came knocking tomorrow he would be off and you wouldn't blame him. His career, his wealth, his family, he owes us nothing. However managers live and die by their results, no manager will avoid receiving his P45 losing 5-0 but did you see the rush keeper doing Cruyff turns.

So yeah, it really depends on who you are asking and there is a balance to be had, it's harder to strike that balance outside of the financial possibilities the elite clubs have, the ability of the professionals decreases rapidly the further down you go. Where you have a player like Beckham that could stick the ball on your door bell from 50 yards away, we're working with players that would find it difficult to hit the same house.

David Clowes I would imagine wants to win, see a return on his investment, however will be fully aware that outside of the Premier League ticket sales account for a large chunk of the clubs revenue, being the clubs "customers" and I hate calling us that, it's a business though, he needs to ensure we find value in the ticket price.

If I continue, I'll be here all day and way off the actual question. 

Fair points - but you admit in your second sentence there but, for fans, entertainment is a big part of it. 

So why are people struggling to grasp the idea that some people do not enjoy the way we play under Warne? 

I appreciate as well as anyone that football is a game of opinions but once again people on this forum are getting absolute pelters because they don't rate Warne or don't like the style of football. I feel a little bit like @Bris Vegascould type "we should sign some players" and the pitchforks would come out 😂

[Day]

17 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Fair points - but you admit in your second sentence there but, for fans, entertainment is a big part of it. 

So why are people struggling to grasp the idea that some people do not enjoy the way we play under Warne? 

I appreciate as well as anyone that football is a game of opinions but once again people on this forum are getting absolute pelters because they don't rate Warne or don't like the style of football. I feel a little bit like @Bris Vegascould type "we should sign some players" and the pitchforks would come out 😂

It's part of it, the size depends on the club. Look at Stoke City under Pulis, had him for 3 years and went back to him for another 7.

Some fanbases are more tolerant with regards to where entertainment matters compared to overs.

It's hard to really point to where we are as I'm 42 now, the Jim Smith tenure, under Burley and the McClaren years are the only seasons where you could sit and say, that's lovely that is, forget the cup, this football is giving me a semi. Lampard at a push if we're just trying not to be too critical.

To think we've had Brown, Davies, Clough, Pearson, Rowett, Clement and I'm sorry but I'll say it, Cocu, that's a decade right there of pretty turgid stuff if we're looking at it through neutral eyes.

I just don't have that we have a history of being entertaining, this isn't entertaining and that matters to me inside. Its been more of a mixed bag with some highs and lows, no real consistency or exceptions so I'm just in this place of wanting to win and be back to pushing for a European place as we did under Jim Smith, seeing Derby in Europe, not pre season is the ultimate ambition I have for this club.

I know it's a long shot and would be a UEFA Conference League or whatever they call it now, but Pride Park, Derby v Leverkusen, how good would that be? If Phil Brown could guarantee that, I'd say bring the orange crispy face bloke back.

[Nuwtfly]

5 minutes ago, David said:

It's part of it, the size depends on the club. Look at Stoke City under Pulis, had him for 3 years and went back to him for another 7.

Some fanbases are more tolerant with regards to where entertainment matters compared to overs.

It's hard to really point to where we are as I'm 42 now, the Jim Smith tenure, under Burley and the McClaren years are the only seasons where you could sit and say, that's lovely that is, forget the cup, this football is giving me a semi. Lampard at a push if we're just trying not to be too critical.

To think we've had Brown, Davies, Clough, Pearson, Rowett, Clement and I'm sorry but I'll say it, Cocu, that's a decade right there of pretty turgid stuff if we're looking at it through neutral eyes.

I just don't have that we have a history of being entertaining, this isn't entertaining and that matters to me inside. Its been more of a mixed bag with some highs and lows, no real consistency or exceptions so I'm just in this place of wanting to win and be back to pushing for a European place as we did under Jim Smith, seeing Derby in Europe, not pre season is the ultimate ambition I have for this club.

I know it's a long shot and would be a UEFA Conference League or whatever they call it now, but Pride Park, Derby v Leverkusen, how good would that be? If Phil Brown could guarantee that, I'd say bring the orange crispy face bloke back.

I tell you what - if Paul Warne gets us into the UEFA Conference League I will write you a 5000 word apology letter explaining, in fine detail, how I am wrong and you are right! 😂

[Caerphilly Ram]

29 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

But you are there for entertainment aren't you? You're there to watch a sport you love, a team you've got a connection to etc etc.

I appreciate this has become a somewhat philosophical debate now but the purpose of sport is for entertainment as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise it would be called exercise. It's a multi-billion dollar global industry because it is primarily entertainment. 

Fair points - but you admit in your second sentence there but, for fans, entertainment is a big part of it. 

So why are people struggling to grasp the idea that some people do not enjoy the way we play under Warne? 

I appreciate as well as anyone that football is a game of opinions but once again people on this forum are getting absolute pelters because they don't rate Warne or don't like the style of football. I feel a little bit like @Bris Vegascould type "we should sign some players" and the pitchforks would come out 😂

What absolute pelters are people getting? I’ve looked back over the last few days of this thread, myself and a couple of others responded to Bris’ post(s) from Saturday offering alternative opinions in a pretty respectful manner and tone. I did respond to Bris in the match thread as he seemed at pains to point out how rubbish we are compared to Watford and Hull during one of the most important games of our season, the timing of which struck me as odd and I stand by that. 

The worst seems to be a suggestion to @BaianoPOTY98 that he should try for a Man City season ticket, a bit mean spirited perhaps but not sure it counts as “pelters”, if he/she/they don’t feel entertained by Warne’s football there’s a decision to make which seems to have been made, I respect that even though I don’t agree. I don’t however feel the dialogue on here the last few days has been anywhere near as confrontational and divisive as at other times this season, but again that’s just my view and I may be wrong.

EDIT - forgot to say there was some worrying bread based accusations at one point. No knead for that 

Edited April 22 by Caerphilly Ram

[Srg]

56 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

But people do watch all of those for entertainment, and take part in those to compete in what is essentially a game. They're not not entertainment because you don't personally enjoy them.  

I don't see how you can see football as being anything other than entertainment. The entertainment of the people playing it and the people watching it. That's all sport is at its core.

Do people saying all sport is just a "physical activity" pull up a chair in the gym and watch people go for it on a treadmill? 

If you want Sports Entertainment I think that’s what WWE calls itself. 

[Nuwtfly]

1 minute ago, Srg said:

If you want Sports Entertainment I think that’s what WWE calls itself. 

I'll ask again - what do you define sport as?

If it's not a form of entertainment for you, what is it? 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

What do you think competitive sport is?

Unscripted 

[Anag Ram]

4 hours ago, Srg said:

That wasn't the argument being made. The argument is that you pay to watch entertainment. You don't, you pay to watch competitive sport with no guarantees beyond that.

Surely it is fair to expect that professionals who are paid eye-watering salaries will produce skills which are easy on the eye having had nothing to do but practice all week?

You wouldn’t sit at the Crucible for a fortnight watching two players smash the ball as hard as they could until one emerged victorious.

I pay for a level of skill. These has been provided infrequently. I applaud effort of course but I could see that on the local rec.

Pragmatism will work to get us out of the league but in higher leagues we will need to be able to play a better standard of football and that will require vastly different players.

 I look forward to seeing how Warne can manage that. As a Derby fan, I obviously hope he will succeed.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

21 minutes ago, David said:

It's part of it, the size depends on the club. Look at Stoke City under Pulis, had him for 3 years and went back to him for another 7.

Some fanbases are more tolerant with regards to where entertainment matters compared to overs.

It's hard to really point to where we are as I'm 42 now, the Jim Smith tenure, under Burley and the McClaren years are the only seasons where you could sit and say, that's lovely that is, forget the cup, this football is giving me a semi. Lampard at a push if we're just trying not to be too critical.

To think we've had Brown, Davies, Clough, Pearson, Rowett, Clement and I'm sorry but I'll say it, Cocu, that's a decade right there of pretty turgid stuff if we're looking at it through neutral eyes.

I just don't have that we have a history of being entertaining, this isn't entertaining and that matters to me inside. Its been more of a mixed bag with some highs and lows, no real consistency or exceptions so I'm just in this place of wanting to win and be back to pushing for a European place as we did under Jim Smith, seeing Derby in Europe, not pre season is the ultimate ambition I have for this club.

I know it's a long shot and would be a UEFA Conference League or whatever they call it now, but Pride Park, Derby v Leverkusen, how good would that be? If Phil Brown could guarantee that, I'd say bring the orange crispy face bloke back.

The expectation of football to be entertaining and your team to be successful has increased as the price of going to watch it has increased.  When you spent £8 quid shovelled into a standing area with a pillar in the way, your more concerned with dealing with an exploding bladder and the 20 stone bloke who practically has you in a man hug and what damage he'll do if you score.  This was normally exacerbated by the bloke 6 ft in front treating you with his 5 pints of bitter and pea mix arse perfume for 90 minutes with no escape. 

Your own seat, easy toilet access, a view of everything, no rain soaked clothes and 10k a week wages for players means the ticket price has trebled -or more- as has everything else.  People expect more if they pay more.  Same as any entertainment.  It's the human psyche.

 

[Srg]

20 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I'll ask again - what do you define sport as?

If it's not a form of entertainment for you, what is it? 

Competition in which you’re trying to win. 

5 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Surely it is fair to expect that professionals who are paid eye-watering salaries will produce skills which are easy on the eye having had nothing to do but practice all week?

You wouldn’t sit at the Crucible for a fortnight watching two players smash the ball as hard as they could until one emerged victorious.

I pay for a level of skill. These has been provided infrequently. I applaud effort of course but I could see that on the local rec.

Pragmatism will work to get us out of the league but in higher leagues we will need to be able to play a better standard of football and that will require vastly different players.

 I look forward to seeing how Warne can manage that. As a Derby fan, I obviously hope he will succeed.

If that was the most effective way to win a game of snooker, then yeah. Again, it’s sport, you go to support someone winning. 

[maxjam]

30 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I'll ask again - what do you define sport as?

If it's not a form of entertainment for you, what is it? 

Well cricket's torture.

[Nuwtfly]

8 minutes ago, Srg said:

Competition in which you’re trying to win. 

If that was the most effective way to win a game of snooker, then yeah. Again, it’s sport, you go to support someone winning. 

And what is it about that competition that you enjoy? It’s entertaining, right?

You’re telling me you go to watch sport to just be supportive of someone and not because it’s for your own entertainment? Do you watch the postman go up and down the road and then boo when he puts a letter through the wrong box? 😂

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, Nuwtfly said:

And what is it about that competition that you enjoy? It’s entertaining, right?

You’re telling me you go to watch sport to just be supportive of someone and not because it’s for your own entertainment? Do you watch the postman go up and down the road and then boo when he puts a letter through the wrong box? 😂

Yes, entertainment should be derived from sport, what that entertainment is for each person is subjective.
As has been discussed many times before with regards to football and specifically Derby County, some may prefer possession based teams who retain the ball and use the close control and movement of their players to pass their way through sides before scoring goals. Some may prefer a more direct approach of out working a team then getting the ball forward as quickly as possible to score. Some may prefer a side that absorbs pressure then counter attacks. Some might enjoy the sides who show great defensive and organisational resolve to see out games 1-0. 
It’s the same across all sport, Boxing for example some might just want to see 2 heavyweights going for a knockout, others might prefer the lighter weight classes engaged in a more technical boxing match looking to win on points. Snooker was given as an example, the perfect break might be what some want to see whereas others might want a game of tactics with each player outthinking the other and using snookers to their advantage.

I watch an awful lot of Australian rugby league as a neutral, because the sport entertains me and I don’t have the emotional attachment that I do to a Derby. It’s a different relationship, that’s a sport I watch for amusement, to see two teams crashing into each other alongside pace, power and skill. I watch Derby because I was taken along to the baseball ground as a kid by my Dad, Uncle and Grandfather, it’s an attachment to them and their legacy as much as it’s the entertainment element of sport, I want the club to succeed within reason, but more than that I want it to be there to carry on that connection as my grandfather isn’t around anymore, my uncle lives thousands of miles away and my dad is hundreds of miles away….yet talking about Derby and the club brings us instantly closer together despite the physical distance. 
 

So yes, it should be entertaining, for me this season has been as I’m content seeing the team score plenty, concede less and chalk up the wins irrespective of style of play. But it’s also about more than that in my opinion, if someone feels so strongly about the entertainment aspect then they choose not to go all power to them, that’s their choice, but it doesn’t automatically make everyone else wrong for feeling differently. 

[MadAmster]

Several topics cropping up in this thread.

Connection. 6 of us came over for the Bolton game doing hospitality. 2 of the 6 were Ram "virgins" paying their first visit to an English game ever. Great time was had by all and, on the Sunday morning over breakfast in the Babington, the 2 "virgins" were referring to DCFC as us and we. Converts to the cause after just the 1 game. They felt part of the city, the club, the fans. Attachment.

The bread related accusations? Whoever posted those obviously had a cob on and, unwittingly, started off a batch  of puns. So, use your loaf and leave them alone... or you're toast.

The football? It has been rather "industrial" at times but, in the main, it's been effective. It should see us go up. Looking at PWs time at Rotherham, he was infamous for his Warneball tactics. We have seen that here, last season and this with rather more skill than he put on show at the Millers. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that much of the criticism is borne out of a wish to see football of the type we've been treated to for about half of the past 30 (ish) years. Those making the criticism should, IMO, think about what silky football is likely to cost, where we were just 2 years ago and that we've been fortunate to be able to put a squad together that has been very good at times, poor at others and middling for much of the season. What we have is a work ethic and a togetherness the rest don't appear to have. Based on money available, business plan and EFL sanctions last season, business plan this season, I don't believe anything other than what we've seen was on the cards. David Clowes possibly thought similar and that's why PW got 4 seasons as up in 2 was a long shot. 

PWs first 2 shots at the SBC with Rotherham saw them stick to Warneball and they went straight back down. Go #3 at it saw him play more "football", a more expansive game. Not my verdict but that of Millers fans when he defected. When he left them after 9 games they were 8th, just a single point off 5th place with a game in hand on the sides above them. He left and they tumbled to 19th come the May. Personally, I'll be disappointed if we're still playing Warneball next season. I'm not expecting an immediate return to the football under Mclaren or Smith or Cox but certainly a more skilful and expansive game than these past 2 seasons. He did it in SBC attempt #3 with the Millers. I expect he'll have enough money to put a half decent footballing side together and will, IMO. One combining finesse with the kind of work rate PW likes. In short, better than this season's football as he's, hopefully learned what doesn't work in the SBC.

[Comrade 86]

5 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

....in order to grow as a football club, we do need to play a better standard of football to get any joy against better opposition.

I'm guessing the Gumps didn't get the memo 😉

Edited April 22 by Comrade 86

[Animal is a Ram]

35 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

But you are there for entertainment aren't you? You're there to watch a sport you love, a team you've got a connection to etc etc.

I appreciate this has become a somewhat philosophical debate now but the purpose of sport is for entertainment as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise it would be called exercise. It's a multi-billion dollar global industry because it is primarily entertainment. 

It's a way down my list of priorities for going.

I just said, I don't expect to be entertained. Mostly because, especially this season, there's always a team doing their damndest to stop that.

Yes, sport is entertainment, but only really for a neutral. In my opinion.

[Nuwtfly]

16 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

It's a way down my list of priorities for going.

And that's fine, by the way! I'm not saying it's not. It's just your own personal philosophy. For me its high up the list.

16 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I just said, I don't expect to be entertained. Mostly because, especially this season, there's always a team doing their damndest to stop that.

Yes, sport is entertainment, but only really for a neutral. In my opinion.

So the bit in bold is essentially where I'm disagreeing with you and with others. You might not expect to be, but surely you hope to be?

I've got plenty of sympathy for Warne re: all the reasons that we've played the way we have. Budget, injuries, quality of the players, the nature of the division, etc etc.

But surely we have to eventually strive for better?

I would imagine that if you asked Paul Warne himself he would even say that he would like us to be playing better football than this.

He deserves to be given the opportunity to do that, and I hope the club back him to do so, but you can understand why some supporters don't have much faith that Warne can deliver better football than this based on a) his time with Rotherham and b) his time so far with us!!

[DavesaRam]

7 hours ago, jono said:

I am not sure I agree with this angle. We certainly have better players than many; but the best ? I think that is debatable. Look at the midfield. The arrival of Adams has made a huge difference but prior to that I reckon or midfield was average. Bird is wonderfully talented but in this league often got out muscled and his skill wasn’t always enough for him to win those battles … so better or just good  ? Hourihan 6 years ago, yes a better player, but our Hourihan ? The one who gets caught napping against athletic sides ? A good player but “better” than the rest ?
The only areas where I think we had demonstrably better players was defence and out wide. We Haven’t got the better strikers and we hadn’t (until Adams) got the best midfield. 
 

Warne had “better” wide players and made best use of them to support our  lack, for much of the season, of a dynamic striker. This leads to a form of football that by necessity involves getting the ball in to danger areas via the wings and making good use of set pieces. All to create the greater number of chances to address those areas where we didn’t have “the best” players.
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see one touch midfield interchanges crafting chances with slick passing ; but too many of our players didn’t demonstrate enough of those skills either due to ability, age, or the type of opponent / type of football played in this league. 

A pretty good analysis, Jono, although Warne was obsessing about getting lots of crosses in before our midfield deficiencies became apparent. And in many ways our midfield deficiencies was largely because he kept playing a 2-man midfield, but without a ball-winner in there. Oh, and by-passing it whenever possible.