Match Thread: vs Bolton (A)

[Kevinhector10]

I agree I think Warne is doing the easy things wrong...he is determined to play 5 at the back despite the players at his disposal...Last year he was forced into playing 4-4-2 and we went on a long winning run...but he still insists on trying the same thing. I am getting worried he is a one trick pony and doesn't have the nous, tactical knowledge or conviction to be in charge of a team like Derby...sad to say I have no confidence he can turn things around.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

3 hours ago, angieram said:

Yep. Makes you wonder what might have happened if we'd set up to have some possession of our own? 

Maybe they'd have still got their two but we might have had three or four ourselves. 

Warne does give the opposition too much respect, imo.

How long would you give him, Angie?

[trappatoni]

18 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

I think the frustration is in inexplicable decisions. Would anyone here have played Fornah as a number 10? NML as a wing back? Bradley instead of Cashin after Rooney’s awful injury? 

There just seems to be some really simple fixes and I am mystified as to why they aren’t made when seem so obvious. That’s before you get into in game tactics and the failure to react. Why did we give them so much time and space? They were vulnerable at the back so why not set up to attack them?

Frustrating and I can’t see an end to it. I won’t get on to what I think of Elder and Bradley.

On the plus side - Fozzy gets better and better, Nelson did OK and John-Jules is better than what we had. And we won’t have that ref again for a while - hopefully. 
 

🐏

 

I didn't go and I didn't listen but if he played NML as a wing back he's dead to me.  I mean did he really do that - it's mental.   

[vonwright]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

The squad McClaren inherited took 4-5 years to build. Rosenior built our squad in a matter of weeks having to get what he could, and with little to no thought to the future.

That’s the point.

McClaren was able to come in and raise levels so quickly, one because he is a very good coach but also largely because all of the hard work and laying of foundations had been done and the blood, sweat and tears had been wiped away.

We are still in the blood, sweat and (a lot of) tears stage. So maybe that’s the reason why Warne hasn’t had the same impact as McClaren - because the squad still requires a lot of work due to the restrictions in place, and perhaps he will have to build those foundations.

Do you think Warne is making signings for 4-5 years in the future? 

Who are the players he has signed who are the foundation of this future squad? 

I think Warne was brought in as a promotion expert and everything he is doing screams short-term results. Only he isn't getting the short-term results. 

It's true everything takes time. Given enough time some things get slower better. But, equally, given enough time some things get slowly worse. The key thing for fans is that we can see some signs of progress to give us confidence things are getting slowly better, not slowly worse. I am not seeing that at the moment. 

You could say - about any manager starting at a club in relative disarray - that they need time to get where they want to be, and given time they will do so. Sometimes that will be right. But often it will be wrong.  So the question is whether we are on the right path. What are the signs that we are? Is it the players that have been brought in under Warne? Coherent tactics that will clearly deliver results, if only we get the right blend of players? I don't see any of that.

Nigel Pearson could claim that if only he'd been given more time his vision would have become clear and everything would have been great. Maybe that's true. But based on the evidence we could see, probably it wasn't. We were right to move on. 

I hope Warne comes good but he needs to show something better and soon 

Edited September 2, 2023 by vonwright

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

The squad McClaren inherited took 4-5 years to build. Rosenior built our squad in a matter of weeks having to get what he could, and with little to no thought to the future.

That’s the point.

McClaren was able to come in and raise levels so quickly, one because he is a very good coach but also largely because all of the hard work and laying of foundations had been done and the blood, sweat and tears had been wiped away.

We are still in the blood, sweat and (a lot of) tears stage. So maybe that’s the reason why Warne hasn’t had the same impact as McClaren - because the squad still requires a lot of work due to the restrictions in place, and perhaps he will have to build those foundations.

If you seriously think Warne is in the same class as Mac as a coach then please just stop right there !

Warne could be given the same players Mac had and you wouldn't see the same type of football we saw under Mac 

The POINT which is very valid is, regardless of the so called blood sweat and tears that you mention Clough did not get us playing how Mac did , so therefore Mac takes a lot of credit for being able to coach that and of course Clough should take credit for assembling the squad

The players we had when Rosenior was here were because Rosenior wanted us to play possesion type football so why bring in a manager who doesn't  want to continue or enhance that ....

I don't trust Warne to bring in the players to get us back to playing some decent entertaining stuff so lets just leave it there eh 

[NottsRam77]

7 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

As I said in my post... "playing in a false LM position". Prior to our midfield signings and after Bird's injury, Warne publicly stated he had no senior CMs available other than Hourihane and Smith. That tells you everything you need to know.

Think its more about giving tommo time on the pitch

cos of out circumstances … he was fast tracked into mens 1st team football.

while he has ability he is still v raw and i can totally see why warne would plumb for more senior (better .. debatable ) pros ahead of him in their preffered possition to tommo

tommo is in the first team pictures and very much part of it but until he gets more experience his youthfullness and energy can play a key role in some areas others simply couldnt do 

 

 

[Kinder]

1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said:

I thought exactly that watching the game. He didn't even look comfortable doing it. Had we pressed him from minute 1 we'd have surely got some change out of him. It took until about the 85th minute before we actually put him under any pressure whilst in possession. Kudos to Collins for clattering him. 

I thought it was a definite tactic actually to not bother pressing their no. 5. We seemed to let him have the ball every time and he didn’t have much success with it from what I remember. He was a beast defending but pretty crap with the ball, so we let him have it on the basis he’d do nothing with it.

[DerbyAleMan]

1 hour ago, vonwright said:

Do you think Warne is making signings for 4-5 years in the future? 

Who are the players he has signed who are the foundation of this future squad? 

I think Warne was brought in as a promotion expert and everything he is doing screams short-term results. Only he isn't getting the short-term results. 

It's true everything takes time. Given enough time some things get slower better. But, equally, given enough time some things get slowly worse. The key thing for fans is that we can see some signs of progress to give us confidence things are getting slowly better, not slowly worse. I am not seeing that at the moment. 

You could say - about any manager starting at a club in relative disarray - that they need time to get where they want to be, and given time they will do so. Sometimes that will be right. But often it will be wrong.  So the question is whether we are on the right path. What are the signs that we are? Is it the players that have been brought in under Warne? Coherent tactics that will clearly deliver results, if only we get the right blend of players? I don't see any of that.

Nigel Pearson could claim that if only he'd been given more time his vision would have become clear and everything would have been great. Maybe that's true. But based on the evidence we could see, probably it wasn't. We were right to move on. 

I hope Warne comes good but he needs to show something better and soon 

I agree with some off this post, but Nigel Pearson was sacked by Mel as Mel was always putting his beak into everything and Pearson rightly told him he would put the daft f***** on his arse, wish Pearson put the t*** to sleep, in what Mel ended up doing to our club DCFC, that man is guilty of putting us in this position in the first place. Love Derby hate Mel. Once A Ram Always A Ram. 

[Steve How Hard?]

41 minutes ago, Kinder said:

I thought it was a definite tactic actually to not bother pressing their no. 5. We seemed to let him have the ball every time and he didn’t have much success with it from what I remember. He was a beast defending but pretty crap with the ball, so we let him have it on the basis he’d do nothing with it.

Pretty poor tactics if that's the case because he got them 15/20 yards further up the pitch each time. Imho if we'd have actually pressed him there is a good chance we'd have won the ball in an advanced position.

I don't recall us putting him under any pressure even after he'd strode forward Beckenbaueresque each time. Now that would have been a good tactic letting him stride forward and then nicking it off whilst he was out of position. Maybe that was the plan but it definitely didn't work. Frustrating all the same giving him such an easy afternoon when he was quite clearly there for the taking. 

[angieram]

7 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

How long would you give him, Angie?

I voted Christmas in the poll, although it's difficult to separate the emotion you feel at the matches from the rationale of giving him time. And yesterday's result could have been so different,  even with ten men.

But he HAS to start putting into practice what he says, and use some of the pace he says he craves.

I was disappointed yesterday when he waited so long after the sending off ( 25 minutes)  to make his tactical  substitutions, especially ones that would have seen John Jules up against their defence.

When he did eventually come on he won three free kicks in quick succession and looked the brightest player on the pitch. Closely followed by Fornah, once he'd put him in a position that actually suits his game.

I'd have loved to have seen JJ get a run at that bulky centre half on the break while Bolton were camped in our half, but by then, Bolton had a lead to defend and had dropped in.

Even then, we had chances, but they all fell to Collins, who can't do anything right at the minute. 

Bolton were jittery; their fans told us pre-game they have no midfield. Strange how we made them look like prime Manchester City there by completely surrendering that territory. 

There are comments on here (I think initiated by the hysterics on Radio Derby) that Mendez-Laing wasn't trying. Well, his play improved significantly when he had something up front to aim at. 

The last fifteen minutes of the game gave me hope because we do have the tools to complete the task. Whether Warne knows how to use them, I have my doubts.

[Terry Hennessy]

7 hours ago, S8TY said:

If you seriously think Warne is in the same class as Mac as a coach then please just stop right there !

Warne could be given the same players Mac had and you wouldn't see the same type of football we saw under Mac 

The POINT which is very valid is, regardless of the so called blood sweat and tears that you mention Clough did not get us playing how Mac did , so therefore Mac takes a lot of credit for being able to coach that and of course Clough should take credit for assembling the squad

The players we had when Rosenior was here were because Rosenior wanted us to play possesion type football so why bring in a manager who doesn't  want to continue or enhance that ....

I don't trust Warne to bring in the players to get us back to playing some decent entertaining stuff so lets just leave it there eh 

Playing devil's advocate here...but if Mac is that good how come he's not really won anything in his career... he's been more of a figure of ridicule...

[Terry Hennessy]

...but generally we got what we deserved yesterday. Yes I know we have half the team out, and yes the REF was useless... but we could not match Bolton in or out of posessesion....sadly...

[duncanjwitham]

12 minutes ago, angieram said:

I voted Christmas

You know what they say about turkeys voting for Christmas... 😉

[angieram]

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

You know what they say about turkeys voting for Christmas... 😉

Are you saying I'm a turkey? 

[duncanjwitham]

Just now, angieram said:

Are you saying I'm a turkey? 

Hopefully not if you're voting for Christmas.

[IlsonDerby]

8 hours ago, S8TY said:

If you seriously think Warne is in the same class as Mac as a coach then please just stop right there !

Warne could be given the same players Mac had and you wouldn't see the same type of football we saw under Mac 

The POINT which is very valid is, regardless of the so called blood sweat and tears that you mention Clough did not get us playing how Mac did , so therefore Mac takes a lot of credit for being able to coach that and of course Clough should take credit for assembling the squad

The players we had when Rosenior was here were because Rosenior wanted us to play possesion type football so why bring in a manager who doesn't  want to continue or enhance that ....

I don't trust Warne to bring in the players to get us back to playing some decent entertaining stuff so lets just leave it there eh 

‘Clough did not get us playing…’ 

 

Clough had us playing absolutely astounding stuff at times, including a 5-0 at Millwall and a goal that happened after about 30 passes. 
Cloughs issue was it was too inconsistent and it never felt like he truly took the hand brake off with that group of players which meant it often felt too cautious because he was always get to 50 points by any means.

[Tamworthram]

10 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

The ref didn't cost us the match, we did that all by ourselves with our tactic, but he did cost us a point or more. There may well be good grounds for the red card - he camera angle was from behind Wildsmith, and the Smith penalty may have been on the line of the penalty area, so it may well have been the correct decision. But the penalty shouts were all pretty good. A clear handball preventing the ball going through in the first half - the defender stuck his hand out behind him. Sonny Bradley was bear-hugged to the ground, there was a clear handball as the ball was bouncing around in the area b y a defender putting his hand to the ground to balance himself. But contact was definite. The weakest was NML getting blocked and barged sideways as he ran into the right hand side of the area by that behemoth of a centre half. When you consider all the soft, non-penalties that were given against us last season, and all the clear ones not given to us both last season and this, is it any wonder that these decisions get such attention? As I said earlier, if we had actually played football, Bolton were there for the taking such that the penalty shouts wouldn't have mattered, so ultimately it is still our own fault.

The only camera angle for the sending off is inconclusive but I’d be surprised if it didn’t hit his arm given the direction of the ball afterwards and we would have been screaming blue murder if we hadn’t been given the penalty that Bolton were awarded. I haven’t found any replays of our penalty appeals and, although at the time I didn’t think any of them strong shouts, you may well be right.

The most ridiculous thing the ref did was to award our penalty rather than allow the original goal to stand. He got away with one then given we scored the penalty anyway but, a big error in my opinion. Personally, I think he should be taken to task for that as a future learning for him. If he does it again it could have much more severe consequences. Why did he allow play to continue after the Wildsmith hand ball but not the foul on Washington?
 

As you say though, essentially we lost the game because we were by far the poorer team and we were reduced to 10 men meaning Bolton could just be patient and dominate even more.

Whilst it would have been a travesty, on another day they wouldn’t have scored their deflected goal or we might have been awarded a second half penalty and we might have held on for a point. But, that’s not how it works of course and the game might have panned out completely differently if either of those things had happened.

I think most of us would have taken three points from the last two away games it’s just disappointing how comprehensively outplayed we were (for large parts of the game) yesterday.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Tamworthram

[IlsonDerby]

I think it’s daft to use Christmas as a deciding point. You decide to change direction in Christmas and you give the recruitment team 6 days to come up with a list of targets that suit the new managers ideas (hopefully passing along the floor to each other). That’s if in this hypothetical you manage to sack and hire on the same day. 

[Hector74]

34 minutes ago, Terry Hennessy said:

Playing devil's advocate here...but if Mac is that good how come he's not really won anything in his career... he's been more of a figure of ridicule...

He did win the Dutch 1st division against Ajax and psv. Also assistant coach when Man Utd won it all. 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

Just now, Tamworthram said:

The only camera angle for the sending off is inconclusive but I’d be surprised if it didn’t hit his arm given the direction of the ball afterwards and we would have been screaming blue murder if we hadn’t been given the penalty that Bolton were awarded. I haven’t found any replays of our penalty appeals and, although at the time I didn’t think any of them strong shouts, you may well be right.

The most ridiculous thing the ref did was to award our penalty rather than allow the original goal to stand. He got away with one then given we scored the penalty anyway but, a big error in my opinion.

I had a very good view of their penalty and it clearly was, in my opinion. Smith was completely caught daydreaming on his heels and caught him just inside the box. We had two, if not three, extremely good shouts in the second half. The one on Bradley, one on NML and a handball. I think I would have given two and was surprised (I wasn’t but you know what I mean) we didn’t get any of them because they would have been given the other way. In the first half just prior to our goal we had a goal bound header which clearly hit their player’s hand. Even from the other end of the ground it looked obvious and I have seen one of throes YouTube fan videoes which zooms in on it and is absolutely blatant. Decision - no penalty. 
 

As bad as we were for 75 minutes we didn’t get any major decisions go our way and things could have been so different. Even the penalty could have stood as a goal if he had waited for 2 seconds. He was poor and you got a sense he didn’t really know what he was doing.