Match Thread: vs Bolton (A)

[VulcanRam]

8 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

If think or believe comes into it, it’s not a sending off. 
 

It HAS to be 100% confident and he wasn’t. 

It looks to me like he was 100% confident. What makes you think he wasn't? He blew up as soon as it was clear Bolton weren't going to score from the follow up shot.

[angieram]

3 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

1) There isn't a separate rule for goalkeepers - deliberate handball for a DOGSO outside the area is a straight red whoever does it, same as a pull, foul tackle or other offence - but the "last man" thing is a misnomer. The last man might technically be standing 10 yards away with no chance of getting to the attacker. It's about whether at that exact moment there is an obvious goalscoring opportunity from the angle of the striker. Even if a defender is on the line it remains an obviously goalscoring opportunity, opportunity here being key.

Referees are told to take a snapshot of that exact moment which helps as normally half a second after the offence the picture has changed (defenders getting back etc). So at that exact moment he sees (rightly or wrongly) the ball hitting Wildsmith's hand he freeze frames in his own mind the picture. There may be defenders around but if they are not blocking the line of strike of the attacker at that moment then yes it is an obvious goalscoring opportunity. It's a judgement call and we can all have different judgements.

1) Indeed he didn't, and he should have. I think that's on his mind with the Wildsmith incident, hence he waits. If the Bolton striker scores on that follow up shot and he has already blown he's made a similar error to our penalty.

2) Referees are allowed a few seconds (there is no definitive timescale provided, might be one second, might be five) to see whether an advantage is actually an advantage. It's a good rule and actually - on the proviso that there was a handball from Wildsmith - the referee has in this instance done the right thing. He's blown for the foul as soon as the follow up shot hasn't gone in.  Take our penalty - say that he's seen the peno but it looks like we're going to score as we did, but in another scenario we somehow missed that chance - there is no advantage to us playing on so we should have the penalty. If he allows that to play out and NOT give the penalty we'd all be howling as to why not! If he blows straight away as he did and we score, we're all howling that he didn't let play unfold for a second! Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

 

 

Thanks for the clarification,  that's helpful.

I can't work out what DOGSO is though. 

[The_Sheriff]

Officials guessing and making game changing errors.

So frustrating 10v14 by looks of it.

I would imagine we will appeal the red

[VulcanRam]

12 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

He was guessing. He let the play carry on until the play had broken down and then had to go over to the linesman who was also guessing. 
 

Absolutely no excuse. 

I don't think that's right. He's allowed a second or two advantage to see if Bolton score with the keeper out of the area. He is perfectly entitled to do that. As soon as they don't he blows for the handball. It was good reffing on the understanding he's seen the ball hit the arm/hand.

Given that it's a red and it's on the assistant's side, he's well within his rights to speak to the assistant in case he has anything to offer. And remember they are already communicating via the headset. Maybe the assistant said he didn't see the handball because of his angle, maybe he said he did see it. You, I or anyone else here doesn't know, so how on earth can you say he was "guessing". He might be wrong by the way, at 100 miles an hour we all see things in football that when slowed down on video turn out not to be, but to state he was guessing is, in my opinion, ridiculous. 

 

 

[VulcanRam]

6 minutes ago, angieram said:

Thanks for the clarification,  that's helpful.

I can't work out what DOGSO is though. 

Denial Of an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by VulcanRam

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

5 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

It looks to me like he was 100% confident. What makes you think he wasn't? He blew up as soon as it was clear Bolton weren't going to score from the follow up shot.

Surely if a keeper handles it outside of the box the play stops instantly, not “let’s see if they score in the next 5 seconds and if not we will then bring it back”. 
 

Also, if he has to talk to the linesman he isn’t 100%. If he is 100%, the red card comes out straight away. 

[Tamworthram]

18 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

He was guessing. He let the play carry on until the play had broken down and then had to go over to the linesman who was also guessing. 
 

Absolutely no excuse. 

That's your opinion. My opinion is that he believed he saw it hit Wildsmith's arm and made the call based on what he believed he saw.

Sadly, we'll never know which one of us is correct.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

I don't think that's right. He's allowed a second or two advantage to see if Bolton score with the keeper out of the area. He is perfectly entitled to do that. As soon as they don't he blows for the handball. It was good reffing on the understanding he's seen the ball hit the arm/hand.

Given that it's a red and it's on the assistant's side, he's well within his rights to speak to the assistant in case he has anything to offer. And remember they are already communicating via the headset. Maybe the assistant said he didn't see the handball because of his angle, maybe he said he did see it. You, I or anyone else here doesn't know, so how on earth can you say he was "guessing". He might be wrong by the way, at 100 miles an hour we all see things in football that when slowed down on video turn out not to be, but to state he was guessing is, in my opinion, ridiculous. 

 

 

Good, I’m glad you think it’s ridiculous. 

[Tamworthram]

28 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

If think or believe comes into it, it’s not a sending off. 
 

It HAS to be 100% confident and he wasn’t. 

Well if such decisions can only be made on 100% confidence then what is the point of consulting assistant referees? If a ref is 100% confident they don't need to ask anyone else. 

I still believe (although not 100% obviously 😀) that the ref believed he saw it hit Wildsmith's arm and either the assistant agreed or didn't have an opinion. In the absence of VAR (with all it's flaws) that's how it has to be some times. 

I don't think we live in a world, least of all when it comes to football, when decisions (including important ones) can only be made if you have 100% certainty.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Tamworthram

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

That's your opinion. My opinion is that he believed he saw it hit Wildsmith's arm and made the call based on what he believed he saw.

Sadly, we'll never know which one of us is correct.

I think I'm struggling to understand this argument so let me double-check:

I think you're saying that guessing isn't the same as a mistaken belief... right?

So he "saw" the ball hit Wildsmith's arm/hand (even though it would appear that it did not) and sent him off, but he wasn't guessing because he was... certain? reasonably certain? a bit certain?... that Wildsmith had handled it?

I suppose if the ref saw that then yes, he wasn't guessing. He just maybe needs to consider another career, because if he was certain that Wildsmith handled it then other video evidence indicates he was wrong, so he's not very good at the thing he needs to be good at. And if he wasn't certain, then surely the benefit of the doubt has to lie with Wildsmith?

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

10 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Well if such decisions can only be made on 100% confidence then what is the point of consulting assistant referees? If a ref is 100% confident they don't need to ask anyone else. 

I still believe (although not 100% obviously 😀) that the ref believed he saw it hit Wildsmith's arm and either the assistant agreed or didn't have an opinion. In the absence of VAR (with all it's flaws) that's how it has to be some times. 

I don't think we live in a world, least of all when it comes to football, when decisions (including important ones) can only be made if you have 100% certainty.

If you’re not 100%, you’re guessing part of it. 
 

Ooh I think that his his arm so I’ll send him off. Erm, no it shouldn’t work like that. 
 

Any doubt, it’s not happening. 

[MadAmster]

Just watched the highlights back on RamsTV.

1. At 0-0 I'm now convinced it WAS handball and the ref got it wrong

2. For the 0-1, he had blown before the ball crossed the line so he was right to disallow Wash's goal and award us a penalty.

3. Their penalty. I'm now convinced the foul, and it was a foul, happened outside the box


4. JWs sending off. I think he got it right. Only able to get a blurry screenshot of it but it looks very much like he played the ball with his left hand.

... and then I saw this from a different angle. An appeal will see the card overruled.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CwtbMEDo9Vl/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D&fbclid=IwAR1yneRjIcka3uvff4sd1FSJLE2CSa-XNgA_lKcomZIXgxk9yJm45ID4IRE


5. Nelson penalty shout. They didn't show it in the highlight reel. Was it or wasn't it? I don't know.

Edited September 3, 2023 by MadAmster

[sage]

1 hour ago, VulcanRam said:

You're right, so presumably he did see it. You could easily argue from the video above that it's hit his thumb. Wildsmith was pointing to his chest and it doesn't appear to go anywhere near his chest. I have no idea, you just have to trust the officials make an honest decision. Much like players and managers, sometimes those decisions, with the speed of the game and in that exact moment, are wrong. We can all benefit from hindsight and video. 

It hit his chest, Nowhere near his arm. The ref had to be guessing. You don't give red cards on probabilities. 

[MadAmster]

3 minutes ago, sage said:

It hit his chest, Nowhere near his arm. The ref had to be guessing. You don't give red cards on probabilities. 

He even checked with his assistant. Looks like both need to make an appointment at Specsavers.

[Tamworthram]

17 minutes ago, jameso said:

I think I'm struggling to understand this argument so let me double-check:

I think you're saying that guessing isn't the same as a mistaken belief... right?

So he "saw" the ball hit Wildsmith's arm/hand (even though it would appear that it did not) and sent him off, but he wasn't guessing because he was... certain? reasonably certain? a bit certain?... that Wildsmith had handled it?

I suppose if the ref saw that then yes, he wasn't guessing. He just maybe needs to consider another career, because if he was certain that Wildsmith handled it then other video evidence indicates he was wrong, so he's not very good at the thing he needs to be good at. And if he wasn't certain, then surely the benefit of the doubt has to lie with Wildsmith?

 I don't think he guessed. I think he made a decision based on what he believed he saw. There is a difference. 

Regarding another career, maybe he should consider one because of other incidents in the game not necessarily this one. 

I imagine all referees have to make a judgement call. Beyond all reasonable doubt, or whatever bar he needed to reach, did he believe that Wildsmith handled it? Without the benefit of a slow motion replay I can see why he reached the decision he did. I also feel pretty certain  that, until replays had been viewed, if it had been the Bolton keeper we'd all be calling the ref a coward if he hadn't sent their keeper off.

[Tamworthram]

26 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

If you’re not 100%, you’re guessing part of it. 
 

Ooh I think that his his arm so I’ll send him off. Erm, no it shouldn’t work like that. 
 

Any doubt, it’s not happening. 

Did it work like that then or are you putting your own spin on his decision process? Maybe it was a case of "in my firm opinion it hit his arm"

If certain decisions can only be made if you have 100% certainty that you are right and can't later, with the benefit of video replays, be proved to have got it wrong then I think we'd see a significant reduction in the number of sending offs, penalties and fouls given in important areas.

[trappatoni]

I'm not 100% on the law but to me it looks to hit Wildsmith around the t shirt line - I think that is handball this year but tbh that video doing the rounds isn't definitive. 

[sage]

1 minute ago, trappatoni said:

I'm not 100% on the law but to me it looks to hit Wildsmith around the t shirt line - I think that is handball this year but tbh that video doing the rounds isn't definitive. 

Do you mean the one where it clearly hits him in the chest? With the area of his body which constitutes handball at least a foot away? That one?

Refs make mistakes. It happens. He made 5 in that game. All against us. 

 

[PistoldPete]

We had nine players unavailable for one reason or another. Wildsmith, Ward, Wilson, Rooney, Cashin, Bird , Thommo, Sibley and Embleton.

And played for a period with only 10 men. So I think we can excuse another bad day on this occasion. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I also feel pretty certain  that, until replays had been viewed, if it had been the Bolton keeper we'd all be calling the ref a coward if he hadn't sent their keeper off.

But that's the nature of any non-VAR system of officiating (and even with it in some cases too) and the cries of "coward" (at their politest) would last until the replays were viewed.

The difference is that any fan being honest about it will admit afterwards that we got away with one because the Bolton keeper shouldn't have been sent off as proven by those replays.

I am interested in how refs acquire that body language they typically seem to have. The guy yesterday (like most refs) looked absolutely in charge, going about his business, giving off an air of one who is making all the right decisions. On the one hand a ref wouldn't do him/herself any favours if doing otherwise, but at the same time: how can someone strutting around with that degree of self-assuredness actually be so bad at his job?!