Match Thread: vs Bolton (A)

[DavesaRam]

21 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Bit strong calling the referee a cheat, incompetent yes, but with a preordained plan to purposely give decisions against us?

Well after Saturday and the Plymouth match last season he’s got form, because all his bad decisions are inexplicable. And have cost is 6 points, with the Plymouth result knocking us out of the play-offs.

[sage]

6 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Well after Saturday and the Plymouth match last season he’s got form, because all his bad decisions are inexplicable. And have cost is 6 points, with the Plymouth result knocking us out of the play-offs.

On the plus side those 3 points may help with Warne leaving.

Disclaimer: The content of that joke is not necessarily my opinion and is not intended to initate a tedious conversation about agenda or fickleness 

 

[DavesaRam]

3 minutes ago, sage said:

On the plus side those 3 points may help with Warne leaving.

Disclaimer: The content of that joke is not necessarily my opinion and is not intended to initate a tedious conversation about agenda or fickleness 

 

Talking of the agenda discussion, being as you raised it, do you self-identify as an agenda or as fickleness?

[sage]

12 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Talking of the agenda discussion, being as you raised it, do you self-identify as an agenda or as fickleness?

I used to have an agenda but I changed my mind 

[IlsonDerby]

1 hour ago, WestKentRam said:

Can't recall this. Must have been wearing my rose tinted specs at the time.

Have had a look online and at the match reports for Peterborough and Bolton but can't see any reference to it so I'm leaving it off my spreadsheet!

 it appears Jameso also saw it 

9 hours ago, jameso said:

I think it was Bolton. Agreed - it looked a bad tackle (I’d forgotten about it until now) and at that point I assumed the ref wasn’t going to give a card for anything he saw.

And I was right, because then he sent one of our players off for something he didn’t see.

 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

 it appears Jameso also saw it 

 

Appearing as first witness: yes I definitely saw it. And winced. And was relieved when he didn't get a red card (or indeed even a yellow) for it!

[WestKentRam]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

 it appears Jameso also saw it 

 

Before I send the detectives in for the benefit of spreadsheet integrity, deffo Bolton then, as you thought most likely Peterborough from your post?

[Archied]

On 06/09/2023 at 15:31, angieram said:

 

Jeez angie , how ducking bad was that , in isolation you might just say poor mistake , when you put in with stopping our goal to give penalty , they’re penalty and our penalty shouts not given then something stinks 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, WestKentRam said:

Before I send the detectives in for the benefit of spreadsheet integrity, deffo Bolton then, as you thought most likely Peterborough from your post?

Here’s another witness testimony for you:

 

 

[WestKentRam]

49 minutes ago, jameso said:

Here’s another witness testimony for you:

 

 

However, the witness says 'would have been a straight red' ie they did not consider the challenge worthy of a red card as it stood.

And I call @DavesaRam for the defence, as his contemporaneous testimony stated 'Elder talked to for going in aggressively, following three equally aggressive challenges from Bolton players in the build up'.

Therefore, if we're sending Elder off, then Bolton should be down to 8 men themselves.

I submit documentary evidence from the FA laws of the game, that a two footed challenge in itself is not a straight red card:

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play."

It sounds to me that the referee was an excellent chap and applied the laws fairly (in this instance, we'll get onto the referee's own misdemeanors later).

The defence rests.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, WestKentRam said:

However, the witness says 'would have been a straight red' ie they did not consider the challenge worthy of a red card as it stood.

And I call @DavesaRam for the defence, as his contemporaneous testimony stated 'Elder talked to for going in aggressively, following three equally aggressive challenges from Bolton players in the build up'.

Therefore, if we're sending Elder off, then Bolton should be down to 8 men themselves.

I submit documentary evidence from the FA laws of the game, that a two footed challenge in itself is not a straight red card:

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play."

It sounds to me that the referee was an excellent chap and applied the laws fairly (in this instance, we'll get onto the referee's own misdemeanors later).

The defence rests.

You have a splendid sense of irony. I think. 😜

[WestKentRam]

53 minutes ago, jameso said:

You have a splendid sense of irony. I think. 😜

Cheers. I think!

I'm good at ironing as well, but can never quite decide if those Derby tops that the label says are ok for a cool iron are safe to do so without risk, or not. If you see someone at a game with a mildly creased shirt, it's me 👋

[Guest]

6 hours ago, WestKentRam said:

The reason I keep the spreadsheet is for my own amusement.  And yes, probably foolishly, I tell people about it, such as Derby and non-Derby supporting friends and on this forum, in situations such as post the Bolton game, and can take and possibly enjoy the ridicule that sometimes ensues.

I would love to see a massive analysis of the whole season with a table after independently verified decisions (however that would be achieved) have been included, but I'm certainly in no position to do this! 

I accept that of course I am biased, and a Derby supporter keeping a list of key decisions that go for and against us each game, as they see it, carries no statistical weight. Still, at the end of the season when we have missed a vital league place by one point, I can look back and feel comfortable in my mind that maybe there were reasons for this other than those caused by the owner, manager, coaching staff, players, fans, EFL, the burden of history, or some other random factor that snatched certain glory from us.

The good thing about watching football is there is absolutely no requirement to be rational about it, or there to be only one view that must be taken on any subject.

'The EFL is out to get us'... Without opening that can of worms, it could be argued that the EFL were out to get us. Referees are employed indirectly by the EFL via the PGMOL, so it's not inconceivable that they may have unconscious bias in the decisions they make in order to keep the EFL happy, given the reviews of their performance and allocation of games that occur.

I am certainly not saying referees have made their mind up before a game to give certain decisions a certain way, but they are prone to bias as we all are, for a multitude of reasons. Home team bias has been documented in the giving of cards, calling of fouls and penalty decisions, and the addition of time at the end of a match.

Referees vary between themselves in the degree of home team bias, so perhaps not a complete surprise that we got key decisions given against us by the same referee when we played away at Plymouth last season and Bolton last weekend. Maybe he is more prone to home team bias, that is known to vary between referees, than other refs? Who knows? I've nothing against him and certainly wouldn't do his job. Doesn't stop me scratching my chin and wondering why decisions appeared to go against us on Saturday though.

Referees also analyse clubs and players in the lead up to a match. Perhaps not the best idea if they want to exclude bias.

Another form of bias that could be relevant to Derby is detailed in this article https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/21/inside-world-premier-league-football-referees-pgmol-howard-webb-andre-marriner-darren-england

The ref admitted in the interview that he was so concerned about not being influenced by the home team in a CL match that he almost consciously gave decisions the other way, to the detriment of the team that he said should have had at least one penalty of the four good penalty shouts. Perhaps with Derby refs are trying too hard to seem that they aren't influenced by the bigger club, that they end up being influenced against us.

Yes, the red card stat is a small sample and time period, but all I can say is it could be given as some evidence that key game changing decisions have gone against us on the field in the recent past, as we've had two red cards overturned in the last year, but no club has done the same while playing against us for many years, as far as I am aware. Ok, Bradley Johnson stayed on the field in 2018 after the 'bite' incident in the game v Stoke, that we lost anyway. However a four game ban after this perhaps evened it out, but it does show that of course key decisions can be missed in our short term favour during a game, albeit 5 years ago! I'm sure there must be other examples like this...

 

 

 

Out of interest then, how many points were we fairly due in 2007-08?

It's 40, right?

[WestKentRam]

10 minutes ago, jameso said:

Out of interest then, how many points were we fairly due in 2007-08?

It's 40, right?

That's right. We got bonus points for breaking so many records that season.

[DavesaRam]

13 hours ago, WestKentRam said:

Cheers. I think!

I'm good at ironing as well, but can never quite decide if those Derby tops that the label says are ok for a cool iron are safe to do so without risk, or not. If you see someone at a game with a mildly creased shirt, it's me 👋

My shirt will no longer be mildly creased. It was a comfortable fit when I bought it, but ……………….

[Archied]

5 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

My shirt will no longer be mildly creased. It was a comfortable fit when I bought it, but ……………….

Yep same here , I keep trying to blame the wife’s washing machine skills but it’s not really fooling anyone