The Paul Warne Poll

[sunnyhill60]

1 hour ago, trappatoni said:

I guess it depends what you like from football but I enjoyed the football under Rosenior.   When you think he hardly had McGoldrick available - where would we have finished under Warne without McGoldrick - I honestly don't think top half would have been definite.  

 

Sacking him (ok not appointing him as permanent manager) looked an odd decision at the time - it makes me fear Clowes' views on the game are decades out of date and he's going to keep on appointing similar types. 

"Decades out of date"

What an absurd statement

Edited September 4, 2023 by sunnyhill60

[brady1993]

2 hours ago, sage said:

Collins finishing cost Rosenoir his job. Missed 5 good chances in those 3 away games.

 

I think more than anything lack of experience on paper cost him.

Clowes was/is in the predicament where he probably can't run the club indefinitely and probably realises it's best for all involved if he sells to someone who can take the club on a level eventually. But he's not going to do that until the club is stable financially, a worthwhile buyer comes along and we are back in the championship. In short until we are a more attractive buying prospect. 

That's a long digression to get to the point of getting us out of league 1 ASAP is highly likely the plan and bringing in Warne was seen as the better bet for a fast promotion with his track record at Rotherham.

Without that record I think Rosenior would have needed to overachieve in his time. Probably with us comfortably sat in the playoffs to overcome his lack of on paper experience.

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Warnes whole football philosophy is based around pressing and gegenpressing ala Klopps Liverpool

I've quoted this small bit bit to talk around because I've seen it floated or close variants to it. And I'd argue its somewhere between not true in theory and not true in execution.

Warne's style of play I think you could argue has the same base root but I don't think it's based on Klopp's ideas (or the set of coaches inspired/worked with Klopp). 

You can sum up the major difference by Klopp's teams care about having the ball whereas as Warne doesn't. Warnes thinking is very much around territory, it reminds of playing rugby in someways. We want to get the ball forwards quickly and into wide areas so that we can either put a ball into the box, force a set piece or force a mistake by a defending player recovering the ball. Get wide -> get it in -> get it back. Rinse and repeat. 

Klopps teams tend to actually play through the lines more, use possession and control the game. Counterpressing is used frequently but the difference there is its often in central areas after a period of domination with several players close by to close in on the ball. Its aggressively winning the ball back to regain control and look for an opening.

Also after that initial ball loss Klopp tends to be a bit choosier about when and how to press. Yes the press is aggressive but its normal triggered and is a mix of players blocking channels, players holding position and players attacking the ball. We tend to be a lot more gung ho in pressing all of the time.

That's the thing though trying to dominate the ball and control the ball and being a pressing side are not antithetical. You mention Rotherhams stats but the thing that underlays them is you are going to have to make more defensive actions as a team if you don't control the ball. So yes they might have been good at pressing but they are forced into doing far more often than average because an inability to hold onto the ball.

Warnes tactics are pretty basic tbh and lack a lot of the nuance that's made for the successful modern pressing teams. 

[Archied]

I think half the problem is we are bombarded with top half premiership and champions league games , coupled with the fact these clubs now buy up ALL the decent youngsters and hide them away or send them out on soulless little loan spells ( 9 subs now ffs ) then us mere mortals who support real clubs expect to see the same football from our teams without the kind of players technically gifted enough and composed with end product or final pass to re create this and for all the calls of building such and such style teams fans of clubs like our want and need results or your out quick smart ,

I didn’t want cocu sacked so I’m not some anti football merchant , there are lots of factors at play when I’m watching derby and forming opinions on managers and player 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited September 4, 2023 by Archied

[sage]

5 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said:

Who signed Collins?

Obviously Rosenoir. Just a comment on the frustration of being a manager.

We were creating chances. 

[sage]

4 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I think more than anything lack of experience on paper cost him.

Clowes was/is in the predicament where he probably can't run the club indefinitely and probably realises it's best for all involved if he sells to someone who can take the club on a level eventually. But he's not going to do that until the club is stable financially, a worthwhile buyer comes along and we are back in the championship. In short until we are a more attractive buying prospect. 

That's a long digression to get to the point of getting us out of league 1 ASAP is highly likely the plan and bringing in Warne was seen as the better bet for a fast promotion with his track record at Rotherham.

Without that record I think Rosenior would have needed to overachieve in his time. Probably with us comfortably sat in the playoffs to overcome his lack of on paper experience.

I think we are both right.

I think Clowes was looking for someone mote experienced but an extra 4 points which would have very reasonably been gained with adequate finishing, would have placed us in the play off positions, which would have made it very difficult to replace him.

Maybe like Rush with Clough and Stevie Mac, he had his man on standby and was waiting for a couple of bad results.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by sage

[May Contain Nuts]

6 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

Personally I thought the football under Rosenior was boring, far too much possession with no real substance. Reminded me of Cocu. The away form remained a real problem. Some of the games were truly dreadful.

My feeling at the time was that we needed a complete change of direction. A clean slate with a coaching staff who weren't connected to the failed previous regimes. This is why I was pleased when we appointed Paul Warne. Immediately he made us get the ball forwards quicker and in my opinion it was a much better watch. He addressed the away form straight away. I acknowledge there were also poor games and it's not great at the moment.

I don't think this current football is the football Warne wants, far from it in fact. When you hear him talk about the game it just doesn't match with what we are currently seeing on the pitch.

Warnes whole football philosophy is based around pressing and gegenpressing ala Klopps Liverpool. Here's one for the stattos. Under Warne Rotherham consistently had one of the lowest 'Passes allowed Per Defensive Action' rates in the entire English football pyramid. Essentially the lower the PPDA, the less time a team allows the opposition to have on the ball. Highly impressive given the lack of quality and depth within their squad in comparison to teams in the Premier League. Rotherham also had the highest challenge intensity, a metric designed to measure how actively a team is seeking to recover the ball. So what these stats tell us is that Rotherham actively looked to win the ball pressing high up the pitch, and were very good at it.

We saw this at times last season, mostly in that good run we had. The 4-2 against Bristol Rovers and the 4-0 demolition of Accrington Stanley spring to mind. Those games I think we saw what Paul Warne wants. We pressed both of those teams high up the pitch and caught them time after time. And we didn't play hopeless long balls. We kept the ball on the deck and moved it quickly, knitting together some good moves. Then mixed it up when we needed to, what good teams do. Aggressive front foot football is exactly what I want to see at the club.

I think we just have to give it a bit more time and let things settle down. I'm confident we will see a good Derby County this season.

Just wanted to say...  Hooray!

AT LAST someone who's come out with a properly researched,  longform, considered pro-Warne post that isn't just trying to sling mud at other people's critical comments.

That's not to say I agree with it entirely, especially the bit about Warne 'immediately addressing the away form*'  but it was still welcome

Away results did improve, but his first 2 away matches were Cambridge (finished 20th, 17th on home record alone) and Accrington (relegated, 22nd on home record - and even that hinged on them missing 2 penalties)

Other away victories came against teams with the 11th, 16th, 19th, 21st, 23rd & 24th 'best' home form, for reference Rosenior's away games were against teams who's home form ranked  10th, 12th, 13th & 18th.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I think half the problem is we are bombarded with top half premiership and champions league games , coupled with the fact these clubs now buy up ALL the decent youngsters and hide them away or send them out on soulless little loan spells ( 9 subs now ffs ) then us mere mortals who support real clubs expect to see the same football from our teams without the kind of players technically gifted enough and composed with end product or final pass to re create this and for all the calls of building such and such style teams fans of clubs like our want and need results or your out quick smart ,

I didn’t want cocu sacked so I’m not some anti football merchant , there are lots of factors at play when I’m watching derby and forming opinions on managers and player 🤷🏻‍♂️

You think people demand elite level football? After watching Warneball for 11 months, I crave for the days of Rowettball, never mind what we had under Mac. I firmly stand by my belief that Rosenior would have eventually got us playing a lot closer to Mac than where we were when he left.

[sage]

6 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

Personally I thought the football under Rosenior was boring, far too much possession with no real substance. Reminded me of Cocu. The away form remained a real problem. Some of the games were truly dreadful.

My feeling at the time was that we needed a complete change of direction. A clean slate with a coaching staff who weren't connected to the failed previous regimes. This is why I was pleased when we appointed Paul Warne. Immediately he made us get the ball forwards quicker and in my opinion it was a much better watch. He addressed the away form straight away. I acknowledge there were also poor games and it's not great at the moment.

I don't think this current football is the football Warne wants, far from it in fact. When you hear him talk about the game it just doesn't match with what we are currently seeing on the pitch.

Warnes whole football philosophy is based around pressing and gegenpressing ala Klopps Liverpool. Here's one for the stattos. Under Warne Rotherham consistently had one of the lowest 'Passes allowed Per Defensive Action' rates in the entire English football pyramid. Essentially the lower the PPDA, the less time a team allows the opposition to have on the ball. Highly impressive given the lack of quality and depth within their squad in comparison to teams in the Premier League. Rotherham also had the highest challenge intensity, a metric designed to measure how actively a team is seeking to recover the ball. So what these stats tell us is that Rotherham actively looked to win the ball pressing high up the pitch, and were very good at it.

We saw this at times last season, mostly in that good run we had. The 4-2 against Bristol Rovers and the 4-0 demolition of Accrington Stanley spring to mind. Those games I think we saw what Paul Warne wants. We pressed both of those teams high up the pitch and caught them time after time. And we didn't play hopeless long balls. We kept the ball on the deck and moved it quickly, knitting together some good moves. Then mixed it up when we needed to, what good teams do. Aggressive front foot football is exactly what I want to see at the club.

I think we just have to give it a bit more time and let things settle down. I'm confident we will see a good Derby County this season.

So Warne should have the time and Rosenoir shouldn't have?

 

[Jubbs]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I firmly stand by my belief that Rosenior would have eventually got us playing a lot closer to Mac than where we were when he left.

This.

We were creating a huge amount of chances but we just couldn't get them all converted. We were top of the xG charts and top in big chances missed. We scored 0 goals from 5.5xG away from home. We would've been absolutely fine last season if we stuck with Rosenior, you could tell the attacking patterns were fine and we weren't conceding many chances (think we were 3rd best xG against).

[May Contain Nuts]

9 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

U know its early days of the season right… weve brought in 8/9 /10 ?players

Thats a massive overhaul by any stretch, theyre not going to gel within 5 minutes.

wait til xmas lets see what signs we can see of progression 

Portsmouth have had an even bigger overhaul and they seem pretty stable already. Our overhaul last season was bigger than this season and again for the most part we looked pretty stable if not exciting.

Portsmouth are the only undefeated team in the league after 6 games (9 unbeaten in all comps) having only conceded 2 goals - 3 of their back 4 are new signings - , they're also the only team to beat current league leaders Exeter.

While I agree we do still need time for our team to gel, the way we play doesn't actually promote our own players becoming familiar with each other's games so it's going to be a long slog.

Perhaps we should have tried to bed players into a less chaotic system and tried to keep things tight for the first few games instead of playing Kamikaze football?

Edited September 4, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[May Contain Nuts]

13 minutes ago, sage said:

So Warne should have the time and Rosenoir shouldn't have?

No no. Rosenior was only the interim manager so tough titties.

[Blondest Goat]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I think half the problem is we are bombarded with top half premiership and champions league games , coupled with the fact these clubs now buy up ALL the decent youngsters and hide them away or send them out on soulless little loan spells ( 9 subs now ffs ) then us mere mortals who support real clubs expect to see the same football from our teams without the kind of players technically gifted enough and composed with end product or final pass to re create this and for all the calls of building such and such style teams fans of clubs like our want and need results or your out quick smart ,

I didn’t want cocu sacked so I’m not some anti football merchant , there are lots of factors at play when I’m watching derby and forming opinions on managers and player 🤷🏻‍♂️

Doesn't appear to have stopped Bolton, Wigan, Oxford playing decent football

And Ipswich and Plymouth last season.

Wouldnt even mind watching anti-football if it was successful.  It hasn't been so far has it?

[duncanjwitham]

For all the talking about giving players time to gel this season, I thought Rosenior's team looked absolutely like a team that hadn't quite gelled yet.  You could see what we were trying to do but players weren't quite on the same wavelength yet, and we were behind on fitness too after the shortened preseason.  To me anyway, if we had started moving the ball slightly faster, cut out a few of the needless backwards passes, been a bit more clinical in the final third etc, we would have turned into a more than decent team. We're talking like 5% improvements or something here, not massive changes.  You don't need to cut out many backwards passes to completely shift where you are playing.  There were plenty of times where we passed 5 or 6 times at the back, worked an opening into midfield and then instead of keeping it there went backwards.  You cut a few of those passes out and all of a sudden you don't have to keep starting again with the 5 or 6 passes at the back so often, and you're passing around the edge of their box a lot more.  We go from a Cocu-type team, to a McClaren-type team.  And I think a lot of that would have happened anyway as we got fitter, got used to playing together etc.

Not wanting to put words into peoples mouths, but I do wonder how many of the "Rosenior's football is boring" people actually wanted that too (RoseniorBall, but a bit faster, and a bit further up the pitch), rather than the endless diagonals out wide, and aimless chipped balls over the top to nobody, that we seem to get with WarneBall.

[Tamworthram]

17 minutes ago, sage said:

So Warne should have the time and Rosenoir shouldn't have?

 

Whilst it was tough on Rosenior, he wasn’t appointed as the manager to take us forward. He inherited the job on an interim basis following the departure of Rooney. He wasn’t sacked because of results or performances (therefore, giving him more time was probably never a consideration). He was relieved of his temporary duties when DC got his man (only time will tell if he is the right man). 
 

I think the only scenario where DC would have had a difficult decision to make is if we’d won pretty much every game under Rosenior playing great football.

[Barney1991]

I’m still flabbergasted by some of his decisions. Moving fornah to a 10 which he did with bird is just a no no. When he was in the 6 he looked a player in the 10 the game just passed him by 

[Ghost of Clough]

6 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

Personally I thought the football under Rosenior was boring, far too much possession with no real substance. Reminded me of Cocu. The away form remained a real problem. Some of the games were truly dreadful.

My feeling at the time was that we needed a complete change of direction. A clean slate with a coaching staff who weren't connected to the failed previous regimes. This is why I was pleased when we appointed Paul Warne. Immediately he made us get the ball forwards quicker and in my opinion it was a much better watch. He addressed the away form straight away. I acknowledge there were also poor games and it's not great at the moment.

I don't think this current football is the football Warne wants, far from it in fact. When you hear him talk about the game it just doesn't match with what we are currently seeing on the pitch.

Warnes whole football philosophy is based around pressing and gegenpressing ala Klopps Liverpool. Here's one for the stattos. Under Warne Rotherham consistently had one of the lowest 'Passes allowed Per Defensive Action' rates in the entire English football pyramid. Essentially the lower the PPDA, the less time a team allows the opposition to have on the ball. Highly impressive given the lack of quality and depth within their squad in comparison to teams in the Premier League. Rotherham also had the highest challenge intensity, a metric designed to measure how actively a team is seeking to recover the ball. So what these stats tell us is that Rotherham actively looked to win the ball pressing high up the pitch, and were very good at it.

We saw this at times last season, mostly in that good run we had. The 4-2 against Bristol Rovers and the 4-0 demolition of Accrington Stanley spring to mind. Those games I think we saw what Paul Warne wants. We pressed both of those teams high up the pitch and caught them time after time. And we didn't play hopeless long balls. We kept the ball on the deck and moved it quickly, knitting together some good moves. Then mixed it up when we needed to, what good teams do. Aggressive front foot football is exactly what I want to see at the club.

I think we just have to give it a bit more time and let things settle down. I'm confident we will see a good Derby County this season.

What made Rosenior's football boring, whilst Warne's is entertaining? Shots?

Rosenior's games which we didn't win:
Charlton - 15 shots
Shrewsbury - 13 shots
Fleetwood - 27  shots
Plymouth - 12 shots
Lincoln - 10 shots

I recall goalkeepers being man of the match in at least 2 of those games (Fleetwood and Lincoln)

In the games this season, we've had 20, 9, 11, 13, 13 and 10 shots. As you can see, there isn't any improvement in chance creation. There are a couple of main differences. Warne's style of play means more shots in relation to number of passes and possession, Collins was unlucky with a number of efforts under Rosenior, whilst Waghorn has been clinical this season.

Is it not possible that Rotherham had a high 'Passes allowed Per Defensive Action' because they were so wasteful with their passing, resulting in the opposition had fewer defensive actions to make? We're 13th for PPDA this season, behind the likes of Wycombe,  Northampton and Shrewsbury. It's also possibly that Rosenior acknowledge the abilities of his squad (mostly old and slow) which leant itself to not pressing as aggressively.

[sage]

18 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Whilst it was tough on Rosenior, he wasn’t appointed as the manager to take us forward. He inherited the job on an interim basis following the departure of Rooney. He wasn’t sacked because of results or performances (therefore, giving him more time was probably never a consideration). He was relieved of his temporary duties when DC got his man (only time will tell if he is the right man). 
 

I think the only scenario where DC would have had a difficult decision to make is if we’d won pretty much every game under Rosenior playing great football.

So if Collins had took some of those early chances and we'd been 4th, it wouldn't have impacted the decision?

 

[Walkley Ram]

I'm about to throw a massive spanner into the works of this whole thread...

There are more managers out there than just Warne and Rosenior.

On paper, replacing Rosenior with Warne was a good move. I personally couldn't believe we'd landed someone with such a good record at this level.

But this thread shouldn't be about what's happened in the past, it should be forward looking. Is Warne the man to take us forward? I loved Rosenior, but he doesn't have any relevance in us moving forwards now.

Edited September 4, 2023 by oodledoodle

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

12 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I think it was Lincoln away that did for him & we were poor that night. Unfortunately for Liam, we hadnt converted dominance into goals in the previous 3 away league games (Charlton, Shrewsbury & Fleetwood) and so the narrative of us being impotent away from home was born. Richie Barker even made reference to it in an interview pre-Bolton...brass neck of him to come out with that & then deliver that garbage yesterday.

Rosenior leaving felt at the time & still does as a massive missed opportunity. I don't necessarily think we would've gone up last season but I think the foundations would be much stronger than they are now. Possession based football takes longer to implement (certainly more than the 8 games he got) but has a much higher chance of long term success. He also had connections higher up the pyramid (which he leveraged to bring in quality players) & an obvious affinity with the youth ranks. He was the man to help rebuild the club on the pitch.

Instead we brought in Captain Pinball, with all the fanfare about his 'promotion record' only to spend the last 12 months being finger-wagged that we shouldnt expect promotion & how he always needs another 6 months from the point at which he is questioned. We've gone backwards since Sep 2022 & that is a damning indictment on his appointment. 

This is it right here. Great post.