The Paul Warne Poll

[Archied]

32 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

 

My issue is that within 10/15 minutes it’s clear it’s the same old dross of let the other team dominate possession, try and break on them in a gung-ho approach which then leaves us open to be sliced apart with bang average counter attacks. 
 

I want him to be successful. I want him to hold up his end of the deal for what we should expect to see on the pitch but it’s coming up to a year and we look (on performances) like we’re going backwards. 

To be fair I attended plenty of games last season where we came out all guns blazing and ran teams ragged , failed to score then lost a goal to a sucker punch and or gassed out so I’m not sure your totally correct , not saying warne will be great or poo but people at least need to be saying it as it is ,

I’ve seen us play possession based football under managers of that ilk with decent players but have games and runs of games where we are honking too , me I simply want to see us scoring and winning , end off ,, it makes my weekend or midweek 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited September 3, 2023 by Archied

[duncanjwitham]

The way I see it, there are 2 completely separate aspects at work here.  Do I like what Warne is doing, and do I think he can be successful doing it.  I think it's obvious to everyone that's read my posts where I stand on the first - I think we should make the ball ours and it should mostly stay on the grass until we decide to kick it in their goal.  But I absolutely accept that there are other ways of playing. I didn't like the way Rowett set his team up, but he was reasonably successful because he set his team up well, recruited to fit it etc.  He had a sensible plan and executed it fairly well.

Regarding Warne, obviously I don't like the way he wants to play football.  I want to see us having the ball, controlling the game, dictating it ourselves rather than focussing on trying to stop them etc.  But beyond that, I do not believe that his particular type of gas-out football can be successful at higher levels, you can't just work harder, you have to work smarter.  You can probably get it to work at this level if you have good players (i.e. better than most of the other teams), which we saw at times last season, and he obviously managed at Rotherham.  But at Championship level, you're facing teams with pots of prem money and good players who will rip holes in you if you let them.  We aren't going to have better players than most of the league, and we aren't going to be able to outrun them all over the course of 46 games.  I think we're trying to build something that just will not work at the levels we want to be at.  That's why I'm so anti-Warne, it's not just about not liking the way his teams play.  (And for clarity, I think his particular type of football is *very* different to both the solid, pragmatic Rowett/Warnock types and the gegenpressing that Klopp-type teams do.)

And even beyond that, we aren't even executing WarneBall very well.  We don't have the players for it, we don't seem to be able to recruit players for it, the academy isn't (wasn't!) developing players for it.

I think more than anything, he was absolutely the wrong appointment at the wrong time.  It's unfortunate for him (because I think he was parachuted into a situation where he was pretty much doomed to failure), and unfortunate for us, because we're quite possibly stuck with him.

[Caerphilly Ram]

45 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Despite my vocal criticisms of Warne on here, and to the surprise of yourself and Tyler and a few others, I’d consider myself in the grey area. 

I’ll explain. I go into every game hoping that I’m about to see what he spoke about in his first few interviews. The football he spoke about. Exciting the fans and playing on the front foot. Honestly I’m willing him on to make me look like a mug every single time we kick off. 
 

My issue is that within 10/15 minutes it’s clear it’s the same old dross of let the other team dominate possession, try and break on them in a gung-ho approach which then leaves us open to be sliced apart with bang average counter attacks. 
 

I want him to be successful. I want him to hold up his end of the deal for what we should expect to see on the pitch but it’s coming up to a year and we look (on performances) like we’re going backwards. 

There’s no surprise @IlsonDerby, and that’s what bothers me most. That’s the point I was trying to make, I’m not one for labelling people one thing or the other. Well I try not to be, I can’t honestly say I’ve never done so when I have posted through the prism of emotion because there’s probably evidence of it on this forum that someone can offer up.

I was just explaining my own stance, and how I feel it’s pretty much a matter I don’t really want to debate with people anymore as they’re entitled to their views as much as I am entitled to mine, and when any of us do share those views it almost always turns into that binary argument.
I see posts like yours and others that present a fair explanation of your concerns and rationale which I respect and accept (apart from those gaslighting comments last season 😉).
The only bit I’ll never really get is when some posts turn sort of nasty and personal towards Warne and/or a player (a general observation, not meaning you or any one particular person). If they’re consciously/intentionally doing something to damage the club with malice then I’d be more understanding, but I don’t think there’s any evidence of that. I’m much more interested in the constructive dialogue some share around the team, the performance, and the tactics etc than I am with comments about his headwear, or rubbish jokes, or his focus on character etc. Again maybe that’s more to do with my own naivety and sweet/innocent nature 👀 

[NottsRam77]

4 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Agreed. There is a logic and philosophy to how Warne wants to setup and play. It’s predicated on moving the ball quickly as to not allow the opposition to settle. In turn, often leaves ourselves too open and unsettled ironically, but there is a theorem behind it that works. I completely understand.

It also doesn’t require highly technical footballers to implement, the system offers a lot of creative freedom, which is why he likes players that will run with the ball, but ultimately you’re running and then passing into space. 

With that being said, I have absolutely no idea why the recruitment strategy didn’t align with his vision. I would say he needs runners all over the pitch for his strategy to work. In the past he’s had Ladapo, Ogbene, Ihiekwe, Harding, Carlton Morris, Olosunde, Crooks, Vaulks… a whole host of grafters, willing runners and athletically gifted attackers. 

I think tbf we are still operating to the agreed business plan… none of us know for sure but id wager we are still being restricted on aspects of our business.

It also takes time, all the targets / types of players needed to fashion such a team arnt all going to be available or attainable in one transfer window. 
people will point to “well he was here last season” … well yes he was but so was our highly restrictive embargo

Imo.. we have to exercise time and patience… as tough as it is at times 

(good post by the way, enjoy discussing views with yourself👍)

Edited September 3, 2023 by NottsRam77

[IlsonDerby]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

To be fair I attended plenty of games last season where we came out all guns blazing and ran teams ragged , failed to score then lost a goal to a sucker punch and or gassed out so I’m not sure your totally correct , not saying warne will be great or poo but people at least need to be saying it as it is ,

I’ve seen us play possession based football under managers of that ilk with decent players but have games and runs of games where we are honking too , me I simply want to see us scoring and winning , end off ,, it makes my weekend or midweek 🤷🏻‍♂️

But the reason that we get sucker punched is because despite playing teams we’re better than we are not in control of the game so as soon as the energy dips were vulnerable. That’s what happened last season. We gung-ho stormed at teams, it didn’t work, we ran out of gas and then paid for it. We have to be able to control a game at any level to be successful and based on comments from Rotherham fans about his teams falling away at the end of the seasons I worry we won’t ever control the games which means we will burn out. 

34 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

There’s no surprise @IlsonDerby, and that’s what bothers me most. That’s the point I was trying to make, I’m not one for labelling people one thing or the other. Well I try not to be, I can’t honestly say I’ve never done so when I have posted through the prism of emotion because there’s probably evidence of it on this forum that someone can offer up.

I was just explaining my own stance, and how I feel it’s pretty much a matter I don’t really want to debate with people anymore as they’re entitled to their views as much as I am entitled to mine, and when any of us do share those views it almost always turns into that binary argument.
I see posts like yours and others that present a fair explanation of your concerns and rationale which I respect and accept (apart from those gaslighting comments last season 😉).
The only bit I’ll never really get is when some posts turn sort of nasty and personal towards Warne and/or a player (a general observation, not meaning you or any one particular person). If they’re consciously/intentionally doing something to damage the club with malice then I’d be more understanding, but I don’t think there’s any evidence of that. I’m much more interested in the constructive dialogue some share around the team, the performance, and the tactics etc than I am with comments about his headwear, or rubbish jokes, or his focus on character etc. Again maybe that’s more to do with my own naivety and sweet/innocent nature 👀 

Yeah I don’t agree with petty insults. The bloke is clearly working hard and has had success previously but I just cannot see it working here. He’s got a ‘club punching above’ mentality when we aren’t punching above when we are near the top of the division. I don’t care about his interview quips or his hats or owt like that. I care about him saying yesterday wasn’t a bad game and that we just needed a bit more energy. We wouldn’t need half as much energy if we could keep the ball for longer than 5 seconds. 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

But the reason that we get sucker punched is because despite playing teams we’re better than we are not in control of the game so as soon as the energy dips were vulnerable. That’s what happened last season. We gung-ho stormed at teams, it didn’t work, we ran out of gas and then paid for it. We have to be able to control a game at any level to be successful and based on comments from Rotherham fans about his teams falling away at the end of the seasons I worry we won’t ever control the games which means we will burn out. 

Yeah I don’t agree with petty insults. The bloke is clearly working hard and has had success previously but I just cannot see it working here. He’s got a ‘club punching above’ mentality when we aren’t punching above when we are near the top of the division. I don’t care about his interview quips or his hats or owt like that. I care about him saying yesterday wasn’t a bad game and that we just needed a bit more energy. We wouldn’t need half as much energy if we could keep the ball for longer than 5 seconds. 

But that’s not what you said , as I’ve pointed out ,,,

this is what you put ,   My issue is that within 10/15 minutes it’s clear it’s the same old dross of let the other team dominate possession, try and break on them in a gung-ho approach which then leaves us open to be sliced apart with bang average counter attacks. 
 

which is not what was happening at all last season , it’s just made up guff 🤷🏻‍♂️

im fine with anti warne if he’s not somebody’s cup of tea but at least stick to real stuff

[Zag zig]

15 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Fair enough wanting him out (I'm on the verge), but the whole PE teacher thing is both inaccurate and disrespectful. 

Yeah I’ll hold my hands up a bit to that, it’s a bit like post match interviews and needing time to reflect but I’d probably revise it to drill sergeant.

Sadly for me, it feels very regimented and all about fitness and running which I mentioned in my post. I’m pleased we’re seeing less of the jokiness in interviews and I’m sure Warne is good company socially.

It’s the adoption of a system and recruitment of certain players that I’m struggling with that doesn’t suggest to me he’s on the right path. Whilst this obsession with fitness, to be able to press more, is it also causing more injuries? This is why I’m possibly still being disrespectful with the drill sergeant comment. I’m sorry but it makes me question whether Warne is running some of them into the ground, do remember last season he kep going on about “gassing out”.

Hope I’m wrong about him, maybe he’ll refine his style but it feels like other than the set pieces, we are going backwards and he’s coaching them out of playing attractive football.

Thought we turned a corner last week, doubting again this. Doubt very much Clowes will do knee jerk this year, it feels pointless anyway; I’m just not sure Warne is going to take us up right now and we really ought to be challenging in this poor league.

[Chris_Martin]

4 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

I think tbf we are still operating to the agreed business plan… none of us know for sure but id wager we are still being restricted on aspects of our business.

It also takes time, all the targets / types of players needed to fashion such a team arnt all going to be available or attainable in one transfer window. 
people will point to “well he was here last season” … well yes he was but so was our highly restrictive embargo

Imo.. we have to exercise time and patience… as tough as it is at times 

(good post by the way, enjoy discussing views with yourself👍)

Yeah but we were better when we had even more of a restrictive embargo last season than we are now which is very worrying. 

[FlyBritishMidland]

5 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Sadly the apathy some feel towards Warne is equivalent to my apathy on this subject. The forum has become an oddly binary place where you’re quickly labelled as one thing or the other (Warne in or out) with seemingly little room for grey areas. I’ve contributed to that with posts challenging other people or at least attempting to present some objectivity by sharing facts where people have misremembered/misquoted/misinterpreted/misrepresented on certain interviews/comments/subjects.

I voted the end of the season. And challenged yourself and a couple of others on your interpretation of the poll. Partly because I don’t particularly see myself as “supportive of Warne”, just that I don’t hate the bloke and want him sacked either. I share the same concerns others do about his tactics, and have been banging a drum since last season about his in game management driving me nuts. I’ve listened to what he says he wants to do for the club and with the team in interviews and I’m onboard, then I fail to see it realised on the pitch and I’m confused. I commented late last season that I think Warne intends to be more “league one Klopp” than “league one Guardiola”, and if the results showed that I’d be content. There are different ways of playing football that garner varying responses from fans, lots are clamouring for possession, I prefer a Klopp style of football where there’s some possession but not just for possessions sake and hear Warne talking as if that’s the type of game he wants to implement, but then it’s neither one nor the other.

BUT my stance on the whole thing, is that I am one of those who is happy to have a club, I try not to get myself wound up about things I can’t control, and am content to have a club to follow through thick and thin after what the club went through and my own personal experiences over the last few years. I follow Derby regardless and will do whatever league, whatever manager. Now this isn’t me saying I’m better than others, cause I’m not, this isn’t me calling other people out if they think differently cause they’re entitled to do so, but it’s how I feel. So I’m not pro- Warne, I’m not anti-Warne, I’m it is what it is for now, I’m happy to see if the bloke can finally deliver on what he says, and if he can’t then it’ll change anyway and the world will keep turning and I’ll keep on being a Ram. 

That’s pretty much how I feel.  I voted not even close to sacking him and I still would today.  That doesn’t mean I can’t constructively criticise - and I think this important as some just resort to insults, as you’ve alluded to on another post.  I think a team in any business, including football, benefits from long-term stability.  There are many examples of that happening in the past.  Sometimes you have to move slower to move quicker - some pain I. The sort term for the benefit of the long term.  Also, I seem to remember our most successful seasons having a slow start, so there’s plenty of time.

To try and answer @iRam about the things I’ve seen is I think he is a good motivator.  Any interviews with his staff or players they all speak highly of him. There were spells last season, particularly the long unbeaten run, where we did play some really good football.  I think he’s signed reasonably well, he’s just got a bit unlucky with injuries to key players (I think Ward is key to 3-5-2 being a success) and I think Bradley is having moments of doubt after his injury.

But he does need to get better.  He needs to be more flexible tactically, I’m a fan of 3-5-2 but without Ward or Wilson it won’t work.  He needs better game management.  He reminds of Southgate in that regard in that he’s reactive rather than proactive.  He responds to the opposition rather than taking the initiative.

The break has come at a good time.  2 weeks to regroup, new players embedded and Cashin to forget Brighton for a while (I do think that affected the squad yesterday).  We then have 5 games to the next one, assuming the Charlton game is postponed.  A couple of tricky games (Portsmouth at home and Blackpool away) but I think we need to get 10 points from those games.  In the Moment of Truth podcast he said chairmen don’t sack managers, fans do.  If we don’t have a good run in the next 5 games, it could test DC’s resolve to avoid the trigger finger.

[Chris_Martin]

6 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Why not?

Interesting point made about choosing Warne over Rosenior by Clowes. 'Duty of care' it was called.

"The club has been reviewing and assessing the managerial position since David Clowes took over and Liam Rosenior has been fantastic. They have a great relationship. The club has a duty of care towards Liam's career as someone taking his first steps in managing and what might happen to Liam if it didn't work out played a part in the decision.

Paul Warne brings experience and now is his time for a big job at a big club. Other clubs were after him, both those with and those without a manager currently. David Clowes liked how he treats players, and journalists, encouraging everyone to get the best out of themselves."

It seems obvious to some/many that Warne is struggling in his 'big job at a big club', will there also be a consideration of 'duty of care' to him? Some of his media interviews have been little short of 'desperate' at times have they not? Is he suffering and not dealing well with the pressures that managing 'a big club' brings?

So we sacked liam when we were just outside the play offs but playing decent football, with a feeling we were really building toward something good. Then replace him with an experienced manager to get us promoted and we are now exactly where we were outside the play offs, but playing terrible football that feels like we're just going backwards. Great.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

33 minutes ago, Zag zig said:

Yeah I’ll hold my hands up a bit to that, it’s a bit like post match interviews and needing time to reflect but I’d probably revise it to drill sergeant.

Sadly for me, it feels very regimented and all about fitness and running which I mentioned in my post. I’m pleased we’re seeing less of the jokiness in interviews and I’m sure Warne is good company socially.

It’s the adoption of a system and recruitment of certain players that I’m struggling with that doesn’t suggest to me he’s on the right path. Whilst this obsession with fitness, to be able to press more, is it also causing more injuries? This is why I’m possibly still being disrespectful with the drill sergeant comment. I’m sorry but it makes me question whether Warne is running some of them into the ground, do remember last season he kep going on about “gassing out”.

Hope I’m wrong about him, maybe he’ll refine his style but it feels like other than the set pieces, we are going backwards and he’s coaching them out of playing attractive football.

Thought we turned a corner last week, doubting again this. Doubt very much Clowes will do knee jerk this year, it feels pointless anyway; I’m just not sure Warne is going to take us up right now and we really ought to be challenging in this poor league.

Agree with all of this. The thought has crossed my mind too re the correlation between all the injuries and the obsession with fitness levels.

[IlsonDerby]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

But that’s not what you said , as I’ve pointed out ,,,

this is what you put ,   My issue is that within 10/15 minutes it’s clear it’s the same old dross of let the other team dominate possession, try and break on them in a gung-ho approach which then leaves us open to be sliced apart with bang average counter attacks. 
 

which is not what was happening at all last season , it’s just made up guff 🤷🏻‍♂️

im fine with anti warne if he’s not somebody’s cup of tea but at least stick to real stuff

That is literally what we’ve seen this season. Every game. 

[RoyMac5]

44 minutes ago, Zag zig said:

Yeah I’ll hold my hands up a bit to that, it’s a bit like post match interviews and needing time to reflect but I’d probably revise it to drill sergeant.

Sadly for me, it feels very regimented and all about fitness and running which I mentioned in my post. I’m pleased we’re seeing less of the jokiness in interviews and I’m sure Warne is good company socially.

It’s the adoption of a system and recruitment of certain players that I’m struggling with that doesn’t suggest to me he’s on the right path. Whilst this obsession with fitness, to be able to press more, is it also causing more injuries? This is why I’m possibly still being disrespectful with the drill sergeant comment. I’m sorry but it makes me question whether Warne is running some of them into the ground, do remember last season he kep going on about “gassing out”.

Hope I’m wrong about him, maybe he’ll refine his style but it feels like other than the set pieces, we are going backwards and he’s coaching them out of playing attractive football.

Thought we turned a corner last week, doubting again this. Doubt very much Clowes will do knee jerk this year, it feels pointless anyway; I’m just not sure Warne is going to take us up right now and we really ought to be challenging in this poor league.

Warne's had nearly a year to 'refine his style'. He was meant to be the finished article, the experience over Rosenior's learning first steps. So we could have kept Rosenior and worked with him through to the 'experienced' stage? We're having to do it with Warne anyway and I'm not liking what it appears the end product might be.

Edited September 3, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

That is literally what we’ve seen this season. Every game. 

There's a lot I agree with in what you wrote but it's possibly worth mentioning that (apparently) we had 55% possession in the Oxford game (in which we were quite bad) and also in the Wigan game (where my recollection was that we did indeed dominate possession). Amazingly we also had 50% against Blackpool. So we may have been happy to give up possession but in those cases we evidently didn't manage to!

This is not to excuse some of the football on show this season, which other than a couple of halves has been at best dull-but-effective and at worst pretty dire.

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

So we sacked liam when we were just outside the play offs but playing decent football, with a feeling we were really building toward something good. Then replace him with an experienced manager to get us promoted and we are now exactly where we were outside the play offs, but playing terrible football that feels like we're just going backwards. Great.

Jeez , that’s not what I remember, I remember feeling that in short time we were going backwards big style from Charlton away which filled me with optimism and the football was frustrating as duck with the added bonus of Russian roulette slow passing round the back line , could have got better but it didn’t feel like it sitting watching it in the ground🤷🏻‍♂️

[HorsforthRam]

I think the Plymouth game at home really dented Liam’s prospects. 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

I understand now why we need to be the fittest in the league - it's because we're chasing the ball for 90 minutes trying to win it back. 

[Chris_Martin]

25 minutes ago, Archied said:

Jeez , that’s not what I remember, I remember feeling that in short time we were going backwards big style from Charlton away which filled me with optimism and the football was frustrating as duck with the added bonus of Russian roulette slow passing round the back line , could have got better but it didn’t feel like it sitting watching it in the ground🤷🏻‍♂️

but everyone could see the tactical aspects we were integrating and it was improving every game. Not to mention an almost entire new squad trying to gel together whilst doing that. Night and day compared to how it is now.

[Chris_Martin]

5 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

I understand now why we need to be the fittest in the league - it's because we're chasing the ball for 90 minutes trying to win it back. 

technically, to win it 'back' you have to have had it in the first place😅

[Archied]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

That is literally what we’ve seen this season. Every game. 

Were we not talking about warne s year with us so far ? I’m no Warne apologist and am not overly impressed with how we have started the season either , warne does not state that he wants to play in a style of giving up possession and hitting teams on the counter attack , he talks a good game and a style I would be happy watching , front foot , try to hurt teams when we have the ball rather than just keep it for keeping its sake and to be fair I’ve seen that at times last season , the big question is can he get derby to produce that on a regular basis ? Regular enough to get us up and keep getting the fans out of their seats ? 
not so far but it is early with a lot of new players , make no mistake , I will be as unhappy as others if it turns out he can’t get us cert top 6 and challengers for top two this season  ( Christmas should give a real view ) as I believe he has a squad very capable of that level , I honestly believe how he handles the pressure of being at derby county with the fanbase , expectation and constant media rounds will be what decides it as it’s undeniably clear he can operate with great success at a club like Rotherham, 3 promotions from this division with Rotherham is is not to be sniffed at and I honestly think some of the insults thrown at him and his record being ignored is just petulant and insulting from some but hey each to they’re own 🤷🏻‍♂️