v Wigan (H) Match Thread

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, The Last Post said:

And all animals coming in 2 by 2...how's things Noah 😉

The animals seemed to have the right idea and stayed out of sight.

Most of the thrill rides closed at different points, so we were reduced to a choice of shows - either Dolly Baa-rton or Justin Beaver.

Give me strength.....🤣

[RoyMac5]

54 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I agree it isn’t ideal that he was in that position but we force our opponents into the same journey back to the keeper from attacking positions by good defending on a regular basis and Wigan did the same to us. It’s just good defending. He HAS to be able to handle that. It isn’t a moot point as otherwise it’s just keeper gets it, centre backs split and we start again. 

Can't say Bradley looked particularly confident all match. My vote for him as captain looks very strange based on yesterday's play. Don't understand why more than once Cashin seemed to be left with the big striker either.

[nottingram]

Last season’s three promoted teams lost 4 games between them at home

[angieram]

53 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Shots on target can be misleading though. Would we rather a tame daisy cutter from 25 yards scooped up by the keeper or missing a sitter after working it well? 
 

One is a shot on target the other is a shot off target but I know which would make me more excited to watch. 
 

It is objective in that a system with no emotional attachment to any team judges their opportunities based on pre decided criteria. 
 

for example - a shot from 25 yards that goes down the keepers throats gets loudly applauded if we’re winning and piling on pressure. It gets moaned at if we’re losing and struggling to break them down despite being exactly the same chance. Emotion and circumstance play too much part in the way I interpret some of our play which is why I go for the emotionless quality of chances metric to see whether I was wrong or right. 

Do blocked shots also count as shots off target? I can't remember that  many shots flying high and wide.

[Van der MoodHoover]

Just now, nottingram said:

Last season’s three promoted teams lost 4 games between them at home

So 1.3 each. Hurrah.....30% headroom to play with.

No need for naysayers just yet...👍

[Charlie G]

16 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Sorry I have to disagree.

The manager shouldn’t have to take responsibility for an individual player making a serious, and by all accounts uncharacteristic, error that results in a goal. OK, the style of play, team selection and formation may have contributed to Bradley being exposed but, he wasn’t under any great pressure and should comfortably have been able to play a safe back pass to Wildsmith. Poo happens so let’s not crucify Bradley but there is also no way you can blame PW. 
 

Regarding the next game, are you suggesting PW should drop Bradley because he had an average game and made one big error? If that’s the criteria for team selection then I fear we’re going to have a high level of player turnover.

Read my previous post, the decision is entirely up to PW and what he wants to do and I'm not saying I would drop him or expect him to be dropped.

I am concerned that Bradley is exposed centrally in a 3 because our midfield is expected to get in the area when ward gets the ball to support Collins. This means we play very high up the pitch

Also remember Wigan had another 1-on-1 where again Bradley was exposed but the chance was missed. The gaps in our midfield are exposing a centre half who probably in the air is the best in the league but on the floor he really needs protection. PW if playing him centre of a three must sort out the midfield and how we attack hence why I said the mistake was avoidable.

[Carl Sagan]

From WhoScored, it was largely attack against defence. Sadly their defence won out:

 

Our player with the most guile and technique in the box was Forsyth, and that's not good enough. I'd say this is why we need Billy Sharp or Jordan Rhodes or, dare I say it but why not after that performance, Chris Martin. Martyn Waghorn has no guile in the box.

[DRBee]

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

I fear that the mistakes in yesterday's game, Bradley's especially, are more systemic and by products of other failures on the pitch.

Look at the suicidal backpass - Hourihane has the ball facing forward with no real huge pressure on it from Wigan players a third of the way into the opposition half.

He then stops and decides to play a cowardly square pass putting his team mate under pressure which then goes back to Bradley near the halfway line and then back to the keeper.

So we've gone from a promising position in the opposition half to then making a backpass to the goalie from near the halfway line - what's that all about?

It should have never have come to that for Bradley to have to be forced to make that pass. I'm not trying to defend Bradley as if as a professional footballer you can't kick the ball more than 40 yards then serious questions need to be asked but this scenario should never have happened.

Was no one showing for Hourihane further up the field, was he too slow in picking a pass, could he have not driven forward and carried the ball further forward?

It just seems he took the chicken, easy, lazy way out. If he's the captain then I'd expect more than that. Maybe it's a confidence thing or maybe he's just not that good enough? Take some ownership though regardless. 

Garbage. Do look back at the vid and tell us what better options there might have been for Hourihane. But in any case its Bradley who mucked up. He wasn't under great pressure when he received the ball He made the wrong decision. He could have passed it to Cashin but instead decided on the back pass and executed it poorly with an understrength touch. Why the accusation of 'cowardly' comes from I don't know. It's characteristic of Hourihane's passing that he often makes a short sideways or backwards  pass instead of moving it forward. Presumably Warne is happy with that. Hourihane was possibly slow in making his decision but that criticism could made of a lot of our play yesterday.

[SSD]

Watching the match yesterday felt like I was watching the same team and weaknesses as I did last season. I mentioned last season the good teams in this division will work out our very basic tactical play going forward. Funnily enough, Wigan read us like a book. They reminded me of our football and squad 12 months ago. Give them full credit, excellent performance from many young lads making their professional debuts. 

The frustration for me is nothing of significance has evolved over the summer (yet). Same standard of play going forward. Incredibly predictable. Cross cross cross. No pace on the counter attack. Collins not getting into the match. Easy to defend against. We are getting shots away however not many were clear cut chances. 

I know there's so much debate about football style and people saying it doesn't matter as long as you win. What I would say is I think most supporters will get behind a team who will try to play attractive football even when the team isn't winning. Whether that's fast flowing counter attacking or dominant possession based and wearing teams down. When you're playing a very old fashioned style and you're not winning, people will become more frustrated quicker. Biggest fear for Warne and it's a shame because I like him as a man.

He has plenty of time to turn it around. 1 game in, 45 to go. Hopefully a few more signings might turn the ship on the right direction.

[DavesaRam]

Well here is Johnny-Come-Lately at last. We had a friend staying over who I drove home last night, and this morning I went to my other church, so here I am now!

Reading through this thread it would seem that a number of us are suffering from "High Expectation" Syndrome. 
Because of the Dilly-Dallying in the transfer market and the subsequent lack of strikers, we have bigged up that it gives us the opportunity for goals to come from all across the team, instead of just one star striker, and so expected to give Wigan a right whupping - especially as they have been hit hard with woes themselves. Maybe also they are aggrieved at how they have been treated, and have come out fighting for a common cause, just like we did when the EFL were habitually slitting our hamstrings then asking why we couldn't run. It might explain how Wigan brought nearly as many fans to an away match as they normally get for a home game, and why their fans did themselves proud.

A came away from the game disappointed that we had lost, but saw plenty to be positive about. We moved the ball well a lot of the time and created a lot of opportunities, and spent quite a lot of the match on top. Wigan gave us a really good game, and it was a good game to watch. But what if Wigan had taken their early chance? An even bigger what if is  why the hell we didn't get a penalty in the first ten minutes. We won't see a more blatant offence in the area .................. until the next one, and the next one, and the next one ................ Having asked for greater consistency from our match officials, we are at least seeing that. They are just as crap as they were the last season, and the one before that, and the one before that. Smith got booked for walking the ball away a couple of steps from a free-kick, and the refs are clamping down on that, but not until after Wigan had kicked the ball away four or five times already, without the ref doing anything. And it took 23 minutes for the first Derby free-kick, and we didn't get a second one until well into the second half. I haven't looked what the ref's name is, but whether it is Simpson or not, he certainly wasn't a homer. He only booked a Wigan player for kicking the ball away because Smith ran alongside him bellowing in his ear "You can't not book him for that"!

So two gifted goals decided the result, with much already being said about that. I think Tyler Durden mentioned a key element, in that Hourihane had the chance to play forwards, but stopped, turned and played a safe sideway ball which led to  Bradley being put under pressure. Hourihane has a lot to offer, but far too often stops and turns and stifles the forwards flow, or simply lumps the ball upwards and slightly forwards. He can do much better, and at the moment is a weak link in our forwards play. 

Their is criticism of our crossing, but Ward put plenty of balls in, but it needs a striker to be there to get on the end of them, and far too often Collins (our striker, remember) wasn't in the area, indeed he was often out on the wing. Yes Collins can do a bit of the link-up play, but that isn't his job. He need to concentrate on what he should be doing. Maybe another reason for our high expectancy was Collins getting on the end of crosses during the pre-season matches, making us think he would do it in the real matches. Apparently not.

A real positive is with the substitutions, particularly Kane Wilson and Callum Elder - both seemed to come on and play with a passion. Wilson looks like a player who will excite the crowd every time he gets the ball. He has tremendous ball control and weaves his way around defenders like they aren't there - he could prove to be a great signing. However I was baffled why Thompson was put up front - surely midfield would be his place, and yesterday in place of Hourihane instead of NML. 

Maybe what we need up front isn't so much a striker as a goal scorer!

Edited August 6, 2023 by DavesaRam

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

Shots on target can be misleading though. Would we rather a tame daisy cutter from 25 yards scooped up by the keeper or missing a sitter after working it well? 
 

One is a shot on target the other is a shot off target but I know which would make me more excited to watch. 
 

It is objective in that a system with no emotional attachment to any team judges their opportunities based on pre decided criteria. 
 

for example - a shot from 25 yards that goes down the keepers throats gets loudly applauded if we’re winning and piling on pressure. It gets moaned at if we’re losing and struggling to break them down despite being exactly the same chance. Emotion and circumstance play too much part in the way I interpret some of our play which is why I go for the emotionless quality of chances metric to see whether I was wrong or right. 

That's why I use my reflections to interpret statistics, such as shots on target. If we had missed a couple of sitters, I'd be less focused on the shots on target, but we didn't.  But typically, if you're shooting a lot and not getting them on target much, it's a sign the overall quality of chance is poor. Of course, there are exceptions to this but yesterday wasn't one of them for me. 

But the 'objective' assessment is predicated upon a subjective valuing of the 'what chance is likely to secure a goal' criteria. I don't know enough about the criteria or specificity, but for instance, does it distinguish between players who have the chance in how it calculates the likelihood of scoring? who decides what kind of chance is likely to score, and how do they calculate it? For me, Wigan created more obvious chances than us to score whilst we piled up low-quality opportunities which were unlikely to yield a goal. The XG may reflect that accumulation of quantity over quality whilst failing to interpret accurately the true likelihood of goal yields. 

[DCFC Kicks]

9 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

From WhoScored, it was largely attack against defence. Sadly their defence won out:

 

Our player with the most guile and technique in the box was Forsyth, and that's not good enough. I'd say this is why we need Billy Sharp or Jordan Rhodes or, dare I say it but why not after that performance, Chris Martin. Martyn Waghorn has no guile in the box.

If it wasn't Chris Martin, and you just looked at the data, you'd say he was one of the best available out there in terms of free agents. If he's dropping down to L1 anyway, why not? We lack his sort of intelligence up top. He would have buried that chance Collins had early on. 

[chadlad]

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I think their gk and 2 centre-backs were new, as they were drafted in from the academy. Not sure about the others though I'll grant you. 

Wigan’s No8 was a young slightly built player making his 1st team debut. Bossed the game I thought.

[Tamworthram]

19 minutes ago, Charlie G said:

Read my previous post, the decision is entirely up to PW and what he wants to do and I'm not saying I would drop him or expect him to be dropped.

I am concerned that Bradley is exposed centrally in a 3 because our midfield is expected to get in the area when ward gets the ball to support Collins. This means we play very high up the pitch

Also remember Wigan had another 1-on-1 where again Bradley was exposed but the chance was missed. The gaps in our midfield are exposing a centre half who probably in the air is the best in the league but on the floor he really needs protection. PW if playing him centre of a three must sort out the midfield and how we attack hence why I said the mistake was avoidable.

I did read your post and of course it’s entirely up to PW whether he drops Bradley or not, same as it is for the whole team. I just wasn’t sure why you’d made the comment. Maybe if PW thinks that Bradley is likely to be exposed on a regular basis he will change something else. As it happens, their first goal wasn’t because Bradley was “exposed”. It was an unforced error, (the Wigan player was closing in but Bradley had plenty of time to play a safe back pass). It was because he made an individual mistake. 99 out of 100 times he’s probably going to get the back pass right. As I said, poo happens. That goal was down to Bradley (but as I’ve said several times, let’s not crucify him - every player makes a big mistake now and then) and not PW.

[Marriot Ram99]

42 minutes ago, chadlad said:

Wigan’s No8 was a young slightly built player making his 1st team debut. Bossed the game I thought.

Looked a better player than Bird already who Rooney said could play for England and fans have talked about as a future Premier league player, at the moment and from what I saw last season Bird has good technique but is barely a standout player in League 1.

The way the midfield is set up and the whole attack in general is just awful which doesn't help, 3 steady neat and tidy midfielders with no pace or power and relying on an ageing  Forsyth ,Collins with no pace or dribbling ability and Ward/Wilson to create anything. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Marriot Ram99

[EraniosSocks]

1 hour ago, HorsforthRam said:

That apply to Wigan too?

There’s plenty of games left, I’ll remember next time the season is decided on the first day. Get Barnesly the champions bus out 

[jimtastic56]

16 minutes ago, Marriot Ram99 said:

Looked a better player than Bird already who Rooney said could play for England and fans have talked about as a future Premier league player, at the moment and from what I saw last season Bird has good technique but is barely a standout player in League 1.

The way the midfield is set up and the whole attack in general is just awful which doesn't help, 3 steady neat and tidy midfielders with no pace or power and relying on an ageing  Forsyth ,Collins with no pace or dribbling ability and Ward/Wilson to create anything. 

I thought their No8 looked a very promising young kid. You had to feel for Collins who ran his socks off to no avail. But one thing I thought I saw was Sonny Bradley shutting his eyes and turning away when he headed the ball like an 8 year old . Was he carrying a head injury of some kind ?

[Andrew3000]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

Well here is Johnny-Come-Lately at last. We had a friend staying over who I drove home last night, and this morning I went to my other church, so here I am now!

Reading through this thread it would seem that a number of us are suffering from "High Expectation" Syndrome. 
Because of the Dilly-Dallying in the transfer market and the subsequent lack of strikers, we have bigged up that it gives us the opportunity for goals to come from all across the team, instead of just one star striker, and so expected to give Wigan a right whupping - especially as they have been hit hard with woes themselves. Maybe also they are aggrieved at how they have been treated, and have come out fighting for a common cause, just like we did when the EFL were habitually slitting our hamstrings then asking why we couldn't run. It might explain how Wigan brought nearly as many fans to an away match as they normally get for a home game, and why their fans did themselves proud.

A came away from the game disappointed that we had lost, but saw plenty to be positive about. We moved the ball well a lot of the time and created a lot of opportunities, and spent quite a lot of the match on top. Wigan gave us a really good game, and it was a good game to watch. But what if Wigan had taken their early chance? An even bigger what if is  why the hell we didn't get a penalty in the first ten minutes. We won't see a more blatant offence in the area .................. until the next one, and the next one, and the next one ................ Having asked for greater consistency from our match officials, we are at least seeing that. They are just as crap as they were the last season, and the one before that, and the one before that. Smith got booked for walking the ball away a couple of steps from a free-kick, and the refs are clamping down on that, but not until after Wigan had kicked the ball away four or five times already, without the ref doing anything. And it took 23 minutes for the first Derby free-kick, and we didn't get a second one until well into the second half. I haven't looked what the ref's name is, but whether it is Simpson or not, he certainly wasn't a homer. He only booked a Wigan player for kicking the ball away because Smith ran alongside him bellowing in his ear "You can't not book him for that"!

So two gifted goals decided the result, with much already being said about that. I think Tyler Durden mentioned a key element, in that Hourihane had the chance to play forwards, but stopped, turned and played a safe sideway ball which led to  Bradley being put under pressure. Hourihane has a lot to offer, but far too often stops and turns and stifles the forwards flow, or simply lumps the ball upwards and slightly forwards. He can do much better, and at the moment is a weak link in our forwards play. 

Their is criticism of our crossing, but Ward put plenty of balls in, but it needs a striker to be there to get on the end of them, and far too often Collins (our striker, remember) wasn't in the area, indeed he was often out on the wing. Yes Collins can do a bit of the link-up play, but that isn't his job. He need to concentrate on what he should be doing. Maybe another reason for our high expectancy was Collins getting on the end of crosses during the pre-season matches, making us think he would do it in the real matches. Apparently not.

A real positive is with the substitutions, particularly Kane Wilson and Callum Elder - both seemed to come on and play with a passion. Wilson looks like a player who will excite the crowd every time he gets the ball. He has tremendous ball control and weaves his way around defenders like they aren't there - he could prove to be a great signing. However I was baffled why Thompson was put up front - surely midfield would be his place, and yesterday in place of Hourihane instead of NML. 

Maybe what we need up front isn't so much a striker as a goal scorer!

Largely how I saw it. For all our flaws it was a good tight game and I don't think we'll see a better side overall than Wigan this season, perhaps Bolton. 

[On the Ram Page]

obviously, a very disappointing result yesterday BUT:

I deliberately didn’t read this thread until Sunday morning because I knew it would be caustic, emotional  and mostly inaccurate. When I did read it, I found I was absolutely right. So having seen the game yesterday I decided to watch it again on Rams TV.

First Half - a good watch generally. After Wigan deliberately kept the ball for well over a minute with  some aimless passing they hit a long ball to Derby’s right which created half a chance. They were obviously targeting Derby’s right for quite a bit of the first half. Derby could and should have been 2 up after 7 minutes, Collins had far more time than he thought and should have done better and Bradley should have scored from a corner. Contrary to many comments, we moved the ball quite well through midfield. Wigan obviously saw Ward as a threat and reduced the amount he could cross the ball as much as possible. Cashin looked a bit casual at times. We could have been 4-0 up by the time of Bradley’s error. He was very static on his standing foot and just let the ball get too far away from him, so he couldn’t get any power into the pass. We lost a bit of composure after the goal and they had a further chance, but generally we bossed the half, which contains some good football.  Unfortunate to go in a goal down.

2nd Half - just as dominant and after Forsyth’s goal there looked only one winner. Ward was finding space to whip in his crosses which cause mayhem at times. Substitutes were ready but Derby were so dominant they were (probably rightly) delayed for a while. Ward see,ed an unlikely choice but the manager stated after that he was “blowing” a bit. The second defensive mistake, this time Wildsmith, cost us this match. Otherwise they didn’t look like scoring.

Apart from the couple of errors, which happen, Derby should really have won. My biggest gripes were our control of the football - the number of times we mis-controlled it, or let it bounce away. We should be better. My other gripe was that we seemed to panic in the last 10 mins and made poor decisions or poor crosses into the box.

There were lots of criticisms of players yesterday but in my opinion, apart from the 2 mistakes, no one had a stinker as many suggested. I thought Nelson was faultless , Collins hold up play, control was as good as I have seen from him.

I think we need to mention Wigan, who after their recent turmoils were magnificent in defence  and effort throughout. Credit where it is due. To my mind, although the result was disappointing, the performance was ok. We obviously need reinforcements particularly in attack and midfield (creativity).

some of the comments from posters were ridiculous, but to be expected on this Forum. I suggest some of you rewatch the game again on RamsTV, we were much better than many expressed. Biggest laugh, the person who said Nelson had a poor game.

 

 

 

 

[HorsforthRam]

26 minutes ago, EraniosSocks said:

There’s plenty of games left, I’ll remember next time the season is decided on the first day. Get Barnesly the champions bus out 

Not saying the season is decided at all. I can accept that it may take a few games for OUR team to “gel” but a general caveat that all teams take 5 games to get going means it’s still a level playing field at the start for everyone.