v Wigan (H) Match Thread

[Charlie G]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

 PW has an outstanding record in as a league 1 manager. We are currently a league 1 team. Granted, he’s not yet managed to prove himself as a successful manager in the Championship but let’s get out of this league first and then see how he fairs if Derby are able to support him more financially than Rotherham could. If he had been appointed after we’d been promoted to the Championship then your comment would be pertinent.

Don't care what Paul Warne has done in the past, great for his CV and applying for other jobs which he got at Derby. 

I'll judge him on what he's done in this job and by his own admission he failed last year. Yesterday's result/performance puts more doubt in my mind about him.

[Steve How Hard?]

10 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Well I'm worn out.....

7 hours plodding around chessington world of adventures in a constant heavy rain punctuated only by 2 torrential downpours of biblical proportions.......

I missed the match and am convinced I've contracted trench foot 🙄

Hope he's a decent centre forward. Quite a strange name too. I'd no idea you were part of the recruitment team.  

[Tamworthram]

My take on the game now the dust has settled.

Firstly, we shouldn’t overlook the fact that Wigan looked decent. Solid at the back and pace up front.

Yes there were individual errors that cost us but let’s not crucify the players just yet.

For most of the game it was fairly even. They probably edged the first half but we were the better team in the second and at 1:1 looked the most likely to go on and win it.

I’m obviously disappointed to have a lost but, I’m pretty certain we’ll improve and whilst no team can ever rule out occasional individual errors, I’m hopeful they’ll become a rarity rather than the norm. Heck, we might even get something at Burton next Saturday.

The biggest concern for me is that we often looked more exposed at the back than a hospital gown. Maybe PW was right and Wigan have possibly the front line in the league.

If it’s any consolation, Plymouth only had 3 points after 3 games last season conceding 8 goals and they did OK in the end.

[Thameram]

Missed easy chances committed defensive suicide can't blame Warne for that. Waggy will help under our restrictions but we need either smith,rhodes or sharp to add more goals 

[Mucker1884]

13 hours ago, bimmerman said:

Welcome

Most important question

Martin 

In... Or Out... 😆

 

13 hours ago, PhilGeeWasMyIdol said:

... Need two CMs...

 

  

[Tamworthram]

28 minutes ago, Charlie G said:

Don't care what Paul Warne has done in the past, great for his CV and applying for other jobs which he got at Derby. 

I'll judge him on what he's done in this job and by his own admission he failed last year. Yesterday's result/performance puts more doubt in my mind about him.

@Thameram makes a good point. You can’t blame PW for the defensive errors or missed chances. 

[Tyler Durden]

I fear that the mistakes in yesterday's game, Bradley's especially, are more systemic and by products of other failures on the pitch.

Look at the suicidal backpass - Hourihane has the ball facing forward with no real huge pressure on it from Wigan players a third of the way into the opposition half.

He then stops and decides to play a cowardly square pass putting his team mate under pressure which then goes back to Bradley near the halfway line and then back to the keeper.

So we've gone from a promising position in the opposition half to then making a backpass to the goalie from near the halfway line - what's that all about?

It should have never have come to that for Bradley to have to be forced to make that pass. I'm not trying to defend Bradley as if as a professional footballer you can't kick the ball more than 40 yards then serious questions need to be asked but this scenario should never have happened.

Was no one showing for Hourihane further up the field, was he too slow in picking a pass, could he have not driven forward and carried the ball further forward?

It just seems he took the chicken, easy, lazy way out. If he's the captain then I'd expect more than that. Maybe it's a confidence thing or maybe he's just not that good enough? Take some ownership though regardless. 

[Mucker1884]

11 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Well I'm worn out.....

7 hours plodding around chessington world of adventures in a constant heavy rain punctuated only by 2 torrential downpours of biblical proportions.......

I missed the match and am convinced I've contracted trench foot 🙄

And you still had a better time than everyone else on here!   🤣

[NottmRAM]

Thrèe things I don't like about the current setup. 

1. We seem to have to go wide when a ball through the middle would be better.

2. We never win the second ball.

3. Nobody carries the ball forward, drawing players in to create space further up the pitch. Instead, there are too many short passes to players who are not in space.

Edited August 6, 2023 by NottmRAM

[MadAmster]

The stats say we had 55% possession, 17 shots to 7, 4 to 3 on target. The team looks like work in progress still. Up top we are getting a stream of crosses in. Unfortunately, too many are either under- or over-hit. That ought to improve. At the back, it looked like Cash and Nelson have been given permission to join the attack. That leaves us short at the back and susceptible to fast breaks. When one or both join the attack, the MF has to cover at the back.

Their first was down to a blunder by Bradley. 2nd? JW came and when a keep does that he HAS to collect the ball. He didn't. That, however, should have been academic as Wyke had his hands full of Cash's shirt preventing Eiran from jumping. Foul. Goal should have been disallowed.

Too many crap passes for my liking. Cashin didn't have his best game for us. Fozzy too many wayward passes and crosses. having said that, he might have had 4 goals...

I enjoyed the game despite the result. Saw more +s than -s. It's one game out of 46 and we will come good.

Ref? Seemed to have a fair few of the changes in his head. Obviously I'm disappointed with his allowing their 2nd. Blunder. There was also the incident where he gave a free kick for Collins getting kicked in the head. That should have been a yellow. The perpetrator then picked the ball up and headed back towards their goal with it preventing a quick free kick. Another yellow. He only got the one. It would be interesting to know which of the two wasn't given...

[IlsonDerby]

16 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I fear that the mistakes in yesterday's game, Bradley's especially, are more systemic and by products of other failures on the pitch.

Look at the suicidal backpass - Hourihane has the ball facing forward with no real huge pressure on it from Wigan players a third of the way into the opposition half.

He then stops and decides to play a cowardly square pass putting his team mate under pressure which then goes back to Bradley near the halfway line and then back to the keeper.

So we've gone from a promising position in the opposition half to then making a backpass to the goalie from near the halfway line - what's that all about?

It should have never have come to that for Bradley to have to be forced to make that pass. I'm not trying to defend Bradley as if as a professional footballer you can't kick the ball more than 40 yards then serious questions need to be asked but this scenario should never have happened.

Was no one showing for Hourihane further up the field, was he too slow in picking a pass, could he have not driven forward and carried the ball further forward?

It just seems he took the chicken, easy, lazy way out. If he's the captain then I'd expect more than that. Maybe it's a confidence thing or maybe he's just not that good enough? Take some ownership though regardless. 

Come on now. Bradley is a professional

of 32 years of age. He has to be able to cope with being given a back pass with a striker chasing him down. He’s squit his pants and messed it up. That’s not systematic. 

The chance they had where their striker just ran straight through us with a simple ball through the middle was a systematic failure. 
 

 

The second error is their first attack in the second half and is woeful from Wildsmith and he’ll rightly be disappointed about it. 
 

There are issues I have with the system as i’ve mentioned further up (no get out of jail pace in our defence and not being properly coached on pressing effectively) but those errors are on the individuals involved only. 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

Not being overcritical of yesterday but every single argument about the first match of the season always being a bit gritty and trying to learn and work with the system was blown apart when Leeds took Stoke apart at a canter after a pre season with Bielsa 😂 

 

*well aware Bielsa is world class… 

I'd say for those saying the first game of the season is always like this, just look at our opponents yesterday... They looked well drilled, organised, knew what they wanted to do, how to do it and looked a lot fitter. 

[IlsonDerby]

5 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'd say for those saying the first game of the season is always like this, just look at our opponents yesterday... They looked well drilled, organised, knew what they wanted to do, how to do it and looked a lot fitter. 

True - absolute agree. the only caveat I’d say is how many of their players are new? 
 

 

[Tyler Durden]

8 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Come on now. Bradley is a professional

of 32 years of age. He has to be able to cope with being given a back pass with a striker chasing him down. He’s squit his pants and messed it up. That’s not systematic. 

The chance they had where their striker just ran straight through us with a simple ball through the middle was a systematic failure. 
 

 

The second error is their first attack in the second half and is woeful from Wildsmith and he’ll rightly be disappointed about it. 
 

There are issues I have with the system as i’ve mentioned further up (no get out of jail pace in our defence and not being properly coached on pressing effectively) but those errors are on the individuals involved only. 

It's all cause and effect. I stated my thoughts on Bradley in my first point so not repeating them again.

What is more interesting is why did Bradley have to make that backpass in the first place at all from the halfway line when we had the ball in a promising position under no real pressure a third of the way into the opposition half.

As the chain of decisions from them led to Bradley being forced to make his error when in reality he should never have had to be forced to kick the ball back from the halfway line. 

This is my exact point which you seem intent on overlooking - how he handled the pass is a moot point - why was he forced to make that pass and the events leading upto requires far more analysis. 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

xG was very good for us yesterday. 
 

Can only assume the xG of the Forsyth goal was quite small too considering the angle and technique needed.

 

As fans it’s easy to let emotions rule our heads when things are bad (and good). We created the better chances yesterday quite clearly. I always use xG as an objective way of seeing whether my initial thoughts about what we deserved are based on emotion or fact. 

XG's problems come up against how to calculate the probability of scoring a goal from a certain position. It's treated by many as an objective statistical reality, but its very basis (how likely you are to score a goal from a certain chance) is subjective. For instance, with the time and space he had in the box, I'd have said Forsyth was quite likely to score even with the angle and technique needed, but you would put it at a low xg rating. 

Personally, I prefer to see how many shots we had on target as well as using my own reflections on the day. I'd say Wigan created clearer chances (2 1v1's) than we did all game (0 1 vs1's), and every time they got into the final third, they looked like they could score. I don't think we'd have scored if we'd been out there for another 90 minutes and relied upon pumping and dumping in the 18 yard area. 
Whilst we had more shots, they were of a lower quality chance-wise, reflected by the fact we only had one more shot on target than they did. That was because our shots were often made from either further out or under more pressure, so whilst we had a lot more shots, our 'chances' were much lower quality than Wigan's. 


 

[Leeds Ram]

4 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

True - absolute agree. the only caveat I’d say is how many of their players are new? 
 

 

I think their gk and 2 centre-backs were new, as they were drafted in from the academy. Not sure about the others though I'll grant you. 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Leeds Ram said:

Personally, I prefer to see how many shots we had on target as well as using my own reflections on the day. I'd say Wigan created clearer chances (2 1v1's) than we did all game (0 1 vs1's), and every time they got into the final third, they looked like they could score. I don't think we'd have scored if we'd been out there for another 90 minutes and relied upon pumping and dumping in the 18 yard area. 
Whilst we had more shots, they were of a lower quality chance-wise, reflected by the fact we only had one more shot on target than they did. That was because our shots were often made from either further out or under more pressure, so whilst we had a lot more shots, our 'chances' were much lower quality than Wigan's.

Quality of chances is always going to be subjective. xG is subjective, so is your opinion. Personally I think the free header Bradley had from the corner as well as Collins opportunity in the first half were as good opportunities as anything created by Wigan. Fozzy also had a good chance in the second half just after he scored his first. I'd also argue both of Wigan's goals were set up by Derby mistakes as opposed to well crafted opportunities. 

[Leeds Ram]

15 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Come on now. Bradley is a professional

of 32 years of age. He has to be able to cope with being given a back pass with a striker chasing him down. He’s squit his pants and messed it up. That’s not systematic. 

The chance they had where their striker just ran straight through us with a simple ball through the middle was a systematic failure. 
 

 

The second error is their first attack in the second half and is woeful from Wildsmith and he’ll rightly be disappointed about it. 
 

There are issues I have with the system as i’ve mentioned further up (no get out of jail pace in our defence and not being properly coached on pressing effectively) but those errors are on the individuals involved only. 

In fairness, and sorry I've quote-tweeted you 3 times in a row (I promise I'm not picking on you!) I believe the error was ultimately the result of a tactical problem. It came from Hourihane going to Nelson and Nelson playing as a WCB (which he looked totally uncomfortable as) passing back to Bradley, which left him as the only one there vulnerable to a press leading to the error. The play put Bradley in a position where he received a poor ball from a not-technically-gifted player in a role where you need to be technically good and Bradley without the legs and a lot of space and pressure coming at him made an error. 

It's not an error you expect to see every week, no, but the tactical setup increases the likelihood of seeing those errors. Looking back at the second goal, we switch off for the throw-in and don't block the cross, but the tactical layout of the back line allows Wyke to give Wildsmith a choice to make leading to the error. Again, yes it's an individual error but the reason we didn't see Wigan make those errors is in part because they had a set up which nipped the chances of them to occur in the bud. 

[Jayram]

15 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

True - absolute agree. the only caveat I’d say is how many of their players are new? 
 

 

Well they have lost 16 players from their first team squad since the end of last season so most of them!

[Leeds Ram]

4 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Quality of chances is always going to be subjective. xG is subjective, so is your opinion. Personally I think the free header Bradley had from the corner as well as Collins opportunity in the first half were as good opportunities as anything created by Wigan. Fozzy also had a good chance in the second half just after he scored his first. I'd also argue both of Wigan's goals were set up by Derby mistakes as opposed to well crafted opportunities. 

I'm not saying my opinion isn't subjective. Of course, it is. I'm saying that using XG to try and derive a statistical fact from our 'play' is mistaken. I didn't think we looked dangerous in the slightest and knew we wouldn't equalise for a second time. I was surprised that we equalised the first time, as up until that point, Wigan had looked really comfortable following an end to end first 15. 

Collins opportunity (when he had defenders next to him) and the Bradley header for me weren't as clear cut as a striker bearing down on goal twice with only the goalkeeper in his way to stop him. But that's just my view and football is a game of opinions.