Referees

[Crewton]

6 minutes ago, sage said:

She got the vast majority right. Far more than the crowd thought both at the time and on here. No glaring errors.

She could have maybe booked one of theirs when she played advantage, but it wasn't stonewall. The problem was yesterday that the crowd were in mass hysteria and howled about every decision with a pack mentality.

Not aimed at you, but being female and giving decisions against Derby outraged many with some awful comments at the game and on here. 

She could have dealt with their shithousing better. Hurried them along and spoken to them about the playacting. However the outrage is laughable. 

 

For me, the biggest disappointment was that I felt she hadn't lived up to the standard she'd set in previous games. Perhaps the late appointment meant she couldn't do much homework on the two teams and was a little unprepared for a tetchy affair? Sometimes a ref's performance is as much about how they referee as it is about whether individual decisions are correct. I think it contributed to a scrappy, disappointing game, but the opposition and our own sloppiness were equally to blame for that .

[sage]

Just now, Crewton said:

For me, the biggest disappointment was that I felt she hadn't lived up to the standard she'd set in previous games. Perhaps the late appointment meant she couldn't do much homework on the two teams and was a little unprepared for a tetchy affair? Sometimes a ref's performance is as much about how they referee as it is about whether individual decisions are correct. I think it contributed to a scrappy, disappointing game, but the opposition and our own sloppiness were equally to blame for that .

I would suggest that Wycombe's tactics, our poor play and struggling in a game we expected to win, amplified any errors or perceived errors. 

The reaction of the crowd and by some on here suggests an refereeing performance on a par with Bolton away. I just hope there were no aspiring female referees in the crowd, as our hysterical fans could quit easily put them off continuing. An outcome that many of the dinosaurs on here would relish.   

[Crewton]

17 minutes ago, sage said:

I would suggest that Wycombe's tactics, our poor play and struggling in a game we expected to win, amplified any errors or perceived errors. 

The reaction of the crowd and by some on here suggests an refereeing performance on a par with Bolton away. I just hope there were no aspiring female referees in the crowd, as our hysterical fans could quit easily put them off continuing. An outcome that many of the dinosaurs on here would relish.   

Certainly any sexist abuse needs to be stamped on but if women are going to be referees in the men's game they will have to learn to deal with vociferous, often antagonistic crowds. They may have aspirations to referee in European competition too and if that's the case they'll encounter much bigger, noisier, dinosaurs than any at Pride Park. To imagine that will ever be different is optimistic.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Crewton

[sage]

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Certainly any sexist abuse needs to be stamped on but if women are going to be referees in the men's game they will have to learn to deal with vociferous, often antagonistic crowds. They may have aspirations to referee in European competition too and if that's the case they'll encounter much bigger, noisier, dinosaurs than any at Pride Park. To imagine that will ever be different is optimistic.

i was referring to female specific comments

[trappatoni]

My take is she wasn't that bad yesterday and she wasn't that outstanding previously.   She's an above average league 1 ref.  I don't think Sibley or Collins needed to be booked - you can argue they brought it on themselves but we've all seen those things dealt with without a card. 

If she told Lyle ? to leave the pitch on one side and he just ignored her then that is poor and I can imagine players seeing that and thinking they can pressure her.

Ive no problem with the crowd getting onto the ref so long as it's  not abuse because of or about gender.   I go to football to be partisan - so Im appealing for the pen on NML even though I knew it wasn't etc.  A sense of injustice helps generate atmosphere - unless the ref is really shocking though there's no need to carry it on on social media. 

 

[TINMANTED]

i thought the ref had an average game compared to the usual fare we get,my biggest gripe was the way she allowed Wycombe to use their dark arts from the kick off,time wasting,gaining ground at throw ins and free kicks,and faining injury,totally ignoring her command,all went unpunished throughout the game

[jimtastic56]

I don’t understand why fans get hysterical over the opposition wasting a bit of time . It all gets added on at the end , that’s why we are having 100 minute games . What is annoying is pro players hoofing crosses into the crowd when you just have to keep the ball for a few more minutes.

[TINMANTED]

11 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

I don’t understand why fans get hysterical over the opposition wasting a bit of time . It all gets added on at the end , that’s why we are having 100 minute games . What is annoying is pro players hoofing crosses into the crowd when you just have to keep the ball for a few more minutes.

totally with you on the pointless crossing to defenders when we have no forwards capable of winning a header,but thats down to warnes tactics,not the ref.i get you with the time wasting getting added on,but no free kick or throw in was taken from the correct position yesterday,and the ref and lino's let it happen

[rustylee]

5 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

 

Hypothetical question, as I don't think Taylor had already been booked anyway...

should/could this be a bookable offence?
...And if it had been a second yellow = red... what then happens with the sub, seeing as that substitution had already been "officially announced" (By putting up the subs board, otherwise he wouldn't be walking off at all, in any direction!).

I know cards can be issued after the final whistle, so just wondered what "could" happen in a situation like this? 🤷‍♂️

The substitution hasn’t been completed just because it has been announced so in your hypothetical situation the player would get a second yellow and the substitute wouldn’t be able to come on or would have to come on for a different player. This actually happened to former Derby player Kwame Thomas who got a second yellow for leaving the pitch too slowly while playing for Notts county.

[Chopper]

Massive disclaimer, couldnt make the game yesterday but listened to it. According to RD she got most of the calls right but wasn't strong enough with the 'dark arts' that are synonymous with Wycombe (see a lot of that though).

Any ref that lets Talyor ignore them, any ref that lets players act out like they have I would argue will wilt when Erling Haarland is at point blank range screaming in her face like some kind of maniac. Id imagine it takes time to get resilient to that. It may be too soon for her the Premier League, I hope they aren't promoting just for expediency and ruin a potentially top level future referee.

In regards to getting sent off before a substitution I seem to remember Gianluca Vialli trying to get himself subbed after a foul, to avoid going down to 10 men, the ref ran after him and Chelsea went down to 10.

[The Key Club King]

44 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

I don’t understand why fans get hysterical over the opposition wasting a bit of time . It all gets added on at the end , that’s why we are having 100 minute games . What is annoying is pro players hoofing crosses into the crowd when you just have to keep the ball for a few more minutes.

And you want find Warne complaining about time-wasting as we do it just as bad as anyone else. 

[The Key Club King]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Certainly any sexist abuse needs to be stamped on but if women are going to be referees in the men's game they will have to learn to deal with vociferous, often antagonistic crowds. They may have aspirations to referee in European competition too and if that's the case they'll encounter much bigger, noisier, dinosaurs than any at Pride Park. To imagine that will ever be different is optimistic.

Surely the way to deal with a voiceferous, antagonistic crowd would be to ignore the calls and abuse and make the right decisions anyway. This is what she did. Almost all refs will favour the home crowd - which is the root of home advantage. She certainly was not swayed by the 400 Wycombe fans in the corner. 

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, trappatoni said:

My take is she wasn't that bad yesterday and she wasn't that outstanding previously.   She's an above average league 1 ref.  I don't think Sibley or Collins needed to be booked - you can argue they brought it on themselves but we've all seen those things dealt with without a card. 

If she told Lyle ? to leave the pitch on one side and he just ignored her then that is poor and I can imagine players seeing that and thinking they can pressure her.

Ive no problem with the crowd getting onto the ref so long as it's  not abuse because of or about gender.   I go to football to be partisan - so Im appealing for the pen on NML even though I knew it wasn't etc.  A sense of injustice helps generate atmosphere - unless the ref is really shocking though there's no need to carry it on on social media. 

 

Was it the Cheltenham that Welch refereed last season? if so she was very good, Let play flow and wasn't fussed or influenced by the players.

I was monitoring the game yesterday on here and when the 5th booking happened I thought in circa 35th minute I had a sense the game was heading for either a sending off(DCFC player)and a 2nd half of players thinking twice on when and how to tackle a WW player, Posters for and against her handling of the game...again are subjective, I believe since Howard Webb has been involved with the PGMOL that refereeing has become very technical and by the book performance, Common sense in most games have fallen out of the window quicker than a Russian Oligarch.

Games are becoming ludicrously long now, WW equalised in the 98th minute, I'd like to see football take up where both Rugby codes are concerned, Independent timer in Rugby League/Union...with time on/or off and HT/FT, Football referees are guessing with the "minimum added time on" PP yesterday 6 were added yet 8 were played...thoughts go back to when we played Birmingham I think a good few years back where we were winning 2-0 then 3mins went up and the whistle was blown after 7mins when Birmingham equalised 🙄 

 

[LazloW]

The trouble with common sense refereeing is that what constitutes common sense is entirely subjective (also, as an old lecturer of mine used to say 'the trouble with common sense is that its not very common'). At least if you're applying the letter of the law then there should be no (or a lot less) scope for interpretation and second guessing. By the letter of the law, Sibley should have been booked for stupidly kicking the ball away long after the whistle had gone.  He had obviously heard the whistle because of the lazy way he lobbed the ball behind the goal - no way he was still trying to score.  Collins was trying to ref the game, getting in that player's face and so on which, in terms of the letter of the rules, should be a booking and easy to avoid by not getting involved (their player was trying to get Sibley sent off, and should have been booked for that in any event too).

Even with my 'letter of the law' approach, the severity of a foul is always going to have an element of subjectivity. Bird was pulling a shirt and stopping a break - clear booking.  NML - stupid lunge after a heavy touch - no real argument about being booked. Connor - same - bad touch, lunge in, get booked.  All looked about right to me and even if you disagree, hard to argue they were complete howlers of decisions - just judgement calls.

Now - the problem with all of this is consistency. However you ref a game you need to be consistent and I think that's where yesterday's ref let themselves down a bit. As has been said a lot - missed a couple of obvious bookings for their lot for doing the same as ours - kicking ball away and lunging in.  Taylor should have at least been booked for what he did and that was easily the worst part of the ref's performance.  You absolutely cannot allow a player to ignore you, brush past you and then chase after them without doing absolutely anything. All authority was lost at that point. 

There was also a lot of obvious play acting from their players and nothing was done - but on that, there is a lot of obvious play acting every week and no referee does anything about it ever.  Can't remember if it was NML's lunge or Connor's but their player went down like he'd been shot, waving his hands around like he'd broken his leg and made it look like his career had just ended. Two seconds later, up and about and nothing wrong. It was a bog standard late challenge which got what it deserved. The reaction was embarrassing.  Nevertheless, I'm definitely not going to single out yesterdays' ref for tolerating such sh*t because they all do it.

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Certainly any sexist abuse needs to be stamped on but if women are going to be referees in the men's game they will have to learn to deal with vociferous, often antagonistic crowds

The driver for women refs should be discipline not diversity. Many of these players have grown up in environments where their primary relationships with males (mates, brothers, fathers) are all based in machismo and aggression. Hence ‘f-ck off ref’ every time the whistle goes.  The authority figures in their lives however are often mothers and particularly grandmothers, and these are the relationships where they show most respect.

So it doesn’t need rocket science to predict that players will show more respect to women refs than to male ones. The problem is the thinking needs to be followed through. Women refs should be less than 5’4”, at least 20 stone, they should be between 50 and 60 years of age and required to officiate in a large hat suitable for a wedding. Then we’d see quite a dramatic improvement in the game’s culture

[Day]

Just catching up from yesterday in the match thread and here.

Quite clear we are still some way from acceptance of women in the men's game.

Be it studio or on the pitch with a flag or whistle.

Had it been a male ref yesterday, wouldn't be nearly as many posts commenting on the performance.

Females should be able to be criticised in the same way males are, however until the sexist undertones are eradicated, it's hard to be critical without being thrown into the sexist box that has the old school mentality that men's game should be just men.

It will be another decade or two before we see any progress with general acceptance.

[tinman]

There probably wouldn’t have been as many posts if her previous games at PPS hadn’t been so good. You become used to the s*** refs in this league. 
But the fall in performance from her was huge. 

[Alty_Ram]

For me I think it was probably an indifferent performance by the ref. I don't think that there were any really glaringly bad decisions but I felt that she never really got to grips with some of the Wycombe antics including ignoring her instructions.

I also think that the flurry of early bookings were unnecessary and it felt like every foul was turning into a yellow card regardless of how trivial the foul was and could easily have led to sendings off for relatively little. There was then some inconsistency with how pretty much identical challenges were later not punished, almost as if the early bookings were an attempt to show that the ref is in charge. Perhaps she'd been told that there might be a lot of needle in this one and she decided that she'd lay the law down early despite it being a fairly lame game in reality. Not the worst refereeing performance we've seen this season by a long way but definitely not hitting the standard that she had previously set.

[May Contain Nuts]

3 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

I don’t understand why fans get hysterical over the opposition wasting a bit of time . It all gets added on at the end , that’s why we are having 100 minute games .

...because it disrupts the flow of the game and allows the team wasting time to control the tempo, making it harder for the other team to build up any momentum, something which can play a crucial part in a good performance.

It all gets added on at the end, yes - but yesterday was an example of that benefitting the team who'd wasted the time, which is when it really sticks in the craw.

 

[Premier ram]

 

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