V Plymouth (a) 7th March 20.00

[Gritstone Ram]

8 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Watched the game two hours behind, and have just read through the thread. My thoughts for anyone that cares.

We played really well first half. Deserved to go in one up.

There manager changed it up, twice, early in the second half, and the momentum swing was noticeable in terms of attacking intent. Warne did nothing, when a couple of substitutions would of clearly helped. We were 1 nil up and just about holding on and he was warming up Dobbin for a like for like swap! We needed more in midfield. Thompson or Springett should have come on for one of our forward players. Or he could have moved Smith into midfield and asked NML or Knight to play RB. As good as NML was first half he might as well not been on the pitch second half.

White is getting pelters, which he doesn’t really deserve. He played ok. He’s a young lad learning his trade not bloody Pirlo. He was unlucky how the ball ran for him on the first goal, and it is difficult to blame him for the penalty, although on balance I can see why it was given. As much as virtually everyone is having a go at the ref, he had a split second to decide, and for what worth I think there was some contact. We would have been screaming for a penalty in the exact same circumstances I am sure. The TV EXPERTS were broadly of the view that contact was made, and I doubt VAR would have overturned it.

The side were poor second half, compounded by baffling substitutions by Warne which didn’t ever look like improving the situation. I fully accept though he is hindered by not having any great forward replacement options - hence when we were one up he should have been shoring the midfield up to help our defence.

Some saying Matete was a horrible player. Perhaps, but we could have done with a Matete in this match.

Overall, they did deserve to win on balance. Not disappointed as I expected to lose tonight. Hopefully the Wendies and Plymouth go up as we wouldn’t want to play either in the playoffs.

We should still get into the playoffs, especially with Bird back and hopefully a fit Chester too.

We can beat any of the other 3 teams in the top 6 in the playoffs. Time though for Warne to start showing he is the League 1 Guardiola, and to start making quicker and more effective and INFLUENTIAL substitution decisions during tight, important matches.

I agree I doubt VAR would have overturned the penalty because now for some reason if someone touches a player in the box and the player goes down it is decided there was contact and a penalty. Surely in  football there is contact it needs to be decided if a foul was committed and this is the sad state that now contact is a foul unless you rugby tackle someone from a corner then it’s play on if it’s the defender but free kick if it’s the forward. 

[MadAmster]

Yet another tale of 2 halves. Worth the half time lead. They were the better side in the 2nd half. Stats say nowt in it. Both had 10 shots, they had 5 on target to our 4. The difference being the penalty that shouldn't have been. Awful decision.

The hardest games left are Wendy and Posh away and Ipswich at home. Minimum of 3 points from those is necessary. The other 8 games need to bring 20 points in. That would be 84 in total and enough to get in the lottery.

Having said that, our record against the top 8 isn't all sweetness and light. Ipswich and Barnsley look good for the playoffs. The other 2 places are between Bolton, us, Wycombe and Posh, IMO.

[Ram-Alf]

I didn't watch the game nor have I seen the highlights...but I have seen PWs after match interview, So just a couple of observations, A huge majority on here saying it's not a penalty, Games are won and lost on gamesmanship(cheating)Alan Shearer once said "if you dangle a leg in the penalty area you're entitled to go over it" I disagree but this is 2023 not the 1960s, Franny Lee was great at winning penalties for us and Man City, It's a common thing and it's in all attackers mind set...White fell for it and by all accounts so did the Ref.

PWs interview...I don't think I've seen him more animated(angry)than in last nights interview, And he's right, It's the little things that turn into big things if you don't work hard and tackle, Close down, Hold the game up this is what happens...you lose, The same against Shrewsbury, Are we too honest, Very naïve or just plain stupid.

Those supporters who went last night must have been wondering what the rest of the season is going to bring, You don't turn from a good side to a bad side in a few weeks, Wycombe, Lincoln, Barnsley, Shrewsbury and now Plymouth shows we have an Achilles heal...13 goals conceded from a defence that was tighter than a Yorkshireman standing at the bar only a month ago.

PW and his staff can work wonders on the training ground, But it's the players who kick, Run, Head, Tackle, Time waste and harangue the Ref, For me...we're too nice, Do to them as they would do to you, This division is unforgiving, Angie said in another thread "I like to see good football" we all do, But you can be horrible and play good football, Intimidate the opposition, But to do that you need to have that kind of player...we don't I'm afraid.

 

 

[RoyMac5]

3 hours ago, Rich84 said:

Not heard the interviews post match, just the comments in here.

That's 2 games running we haven't reacted to a change at HT by opposition,  resulting in 2 goals each in next 20 minutes.

The management need to see the weaknesses being exploited and attempting to fix from the bench, yet again too late last night, we needed energy in midfield to try to slow down their attacks, Thompson should have been on for White to break up play, although I was concerned at the line up and subs before the game started, away from home against 2nd place and we chose to weaken the midfield by taking Smith out, and to not even have the option to put him back in mid game with Rooney not even on the bench (should have started) was a mistake before a ball was kicked. With Sibs and Dobbin on bench Springett should have missed out to get him in the squad, we seem to deliberately weaken the team for these big away games, that's 2 on trot away from home.

Starting to concern me the lack of response from the bench mid game, especially when we know Warne wants high intensity play, you need to be proactive with the subs.

Don't you think that you're asking the wrong question if the answer is Thompson?

The squad isn't well balanced nor big enough. We needed midfield experience, we needed another striker, we needed to keep the quality of Barks etc on the pitch. We could do none of those things. It's no surprise we struggled, their subs could have started the game, could/should ours, I don't think so.

Edited March 8, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Sparkle said:

if we make the play offs I would like to play Plymouth 

Plymouth's record this season against the other top six clubs is P9 W6 D2 L1 Pts 20.

If we make the play-offs, I sincerely hope that they have secured one of the automatic places. Anyone but Plymouth for me.

[DRBee]

12 hours ago, StrawHillRam said:

This team lacks steel and grit. Some decent enough players, but we need some hard men in this league

This is a comment we could have made for many recent seasons, not just this one. Given the high

manager turnover its surprising that it has been such a constant feature.

[HorsforthRam]

9 hours ago, angieram said:

I agree with this and whilst I know Warne has limited options from the bench he could have brought on players who know how to retain the ball and calmed things down.

Plymouth went to three at the back but again Warne didn't react until we were chasing the game.

And then he brings on a random assortment of mis-matched subs who don't appear to know what position they're playing. I've never seen such a waste of Sibley's talents. And don't get me started on Collins - I would rather see Cybulski getting the odd sub runout than him. At least Bart knows how to hold up the ball and lay it off without giving away a foul every time! 

I would like to see Warne take some responsibility in his post-match interviews, rather than just calling out his players. Although I have a certain sympathy where Hourihane is concerned! 

On the penalty, it should be an automatic three match ban for players who cheat. Until then, players will continue to get away with this shocking play-acting.

Small consolations. I take no pride (but 5 points) in getting tonight's prediction spot-on. And I'm enjoying a cold beer back at my hotel rather than dodging motorway roadworks and a 4 am return to Derby. I might regret it tomorrow if it snows hard overnight! 

Which players do you think could have come on and retained the ball? To me, there seemed to be a collective lack of composure, passed on from one player to the next as soon as the tempo is upped. You see it in players like Smith (whilst I understand he is playing out of position), he looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights when he hasn’t got the simple pass to NML up the line. 

[BramcoteRam84]

Had a great time experiencing the culture of Plymouth in my hotel, home park and 2 Wetherspoons (Union Rooms and Britannia) ??. Now nursing my hangover and grabbing some breakfast before the long trip back home, looks a bit wet to go and explore.

I felt quite positive last night, less so today now I’ve reflected. Don’t think I’ve seen Warne as down in an interview as he was last night. Clearly he expects more which is good. First half we were excellent and we completely nullified them. Second half they were always going to come out like a steam train and thought wed dealt with it but the goals changed it, and as Warne said we didn’t respond. 

Could Warne have done more with the changes, yes, could he have played Korey in midfield but then who would play RB, was Rooney fit are we just assuming he was dropped, Jason Knight who everyone says needs to play midfield. We don’t have many options, we miss Bird badly as I think our performance last night can be summed 
by the first and second half performances of Harvey White who is a talent but still learning.

Don’t agree with those blaming Warne, if he got his team selection wrong as some are saying then why did we play well and dominate the first half?! Players play the game and they didn’t do their jobs second half missing tackles for the first goal. Additionally away from home against good teams you need some luck and we had none with the deflected goal and ridiculous penalty decision. Even Plymouth when they beat us at our place needed luck as Cosgrove’s equaliser was clearly offside.

Key difference for me is they have players of the right age, and they have a belief and commitment forged by being a team built over 2 seasons, like Sheff Wed, like Ipswich. They grabbed the game, we didn’t and it was nothing to do with tactics or changes. Hopefully we learned lessons at Barnsley and we learned lessons last night to prepare us for the playoffs. 
 

Now we need to concentrate on cementing those playoffs.

[AndyB]

It’s about what we do. We can’t control what the opposition does or how bad the ref is. But we do need, as some have said, a certain type of player that we’re currently missing. We have talent and ability but we’re too nice as a team.

For me the missing player needs to be able to do the following:

1. Ref the game or “manage” the ref through the 90 minutes. We see players from other teams do this, we don’t.

2. Gee up the rest of the team when the tide is turning against us. Have a word with a few. Go tight for 10 minutes. Change the mentality. This would have been invaluable in some of our recent games but it didn’t happen.

3. Make a few tackles, bully the opposition a bit, identify the opposition’s key player and bring him down a peg or two.

4. Win the ball and pass it to our better technical players.

I believe with this one addition to the squad we would get enough points to go up next season if we don’t this. However, how easy it will be to get this player under current restrictions I don’t know.

[Tamworthram]

50 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Plymouth's record this season against the other top six clubs is P9 W6 D2 L1 Pts 20.

If we make the play-offs, I sincerely hope that they have secured one of the automatic places. Anyone but Plymouth for me.

Overall, I would agree. However, as someone pointed out, despite how poor our second half was/always is, if that was the first leg of the play offs then I’d be feeling OK for the home leg. The problem is of course, if we do meet them in the semi finals then the first leg would be at home. If we met them in the final then we all know anything can happen.

We are yet to see how we will fair against Ipswich at home so they might be one to avoid as well. At this moment in time I feel we’d have a chance against either Barnsley or Bolton (either over two legs or in the final) but a lot will depend on if any teams pick up injuries and if we can recapture some of our turn of the year form.

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Don't you think that you're asking the wrong question if the answer is Thompson?

The squad isn't well balanced nor big enough. We needed midfield experience, we needed another striker, we needed to keep the quality of Barks etc on the pitch. We could do none of those things. It's no surprise we struggled, their subs could have started the game, could/should ours, I don't think so.

Unfair on Thompson I would say. I know he hasnt really kicked on this season when given the opportunity, but last season in many backs-to-the-wall matches, against superior opposition, he was industrious, performed well in the tackle, and was tidy with his ball distribution.

When they made their second and third sub, I was shouting at the TV for Warne to bring on someone else in midfield. There was a bit of danger coming from Mamba (?) was it on the wing, but their skilled players were all going through the middle. Thompson (or Springett) should have come on for Barkhuisen, and Knight moved to the right or left for a midfield 4 of Thompson, White, Hourihane and Knight. Indeed there was a good argument to pull Knight back to RB and have a midfield 4 of Thompson, Smith, Hourihane and White.  We didn't need another goal at that time, we needed to stifle momentum. Slow the game down, get a few niggly fouls in. Regroup.

We all havent different opinions though.  COYR!!

[RoyMac5]

Just now, i-Ram said:

Unfair on Thompson I would say. I know he hasnt really kicked on this season when given the opportunity, but last season in many backs-to-the-wall matches, against superior opposition, he was industrious, performed well in the tackle, and was tidy with his ball distribution.

When they made their second and third sub, I was shouting at the TV for Warne to bring on someone else in midfield. There was a bit of danger coming from Mamba (?) was it on the wing, but their skilled players were all going through the middle. Thompson (or Springett) should have come on for Barkhuisen, and Knight moved to the right or left for a midfield 4 of Thompson, White, Hourihane and Knight. Indeed there was a good argument to pull Knight back to RB and have a midfield 4 of Thompson, Smith, Hourihane and White.  We didn't need another goal at that time, we needed to stifle momentum. Slow the game down, get a few niggly fouls in. Regroup.

We all havent different opinions though.  COYR!!

Go ahead say it. But he obviously doesn't show much in training if he can't get on the pitch, or maybe Warne doesn't like him. Did he break his mug? ?

[strawhillram]

1 hour ago, DRBee said:

This is a comment we could have made for many recent seasons, not just this one. Given the high

manager turnover its surprising that it has been such a constant feature.

Agree, but I think it's more of an issue in this league of hackers and cloggers.

[Ram-Alf]

Just seen the highlights.

No touch for the penalty, Referee points to the spot, He got it wrong, But can see why he gave it, Plymouth at home, Attacking, Crowd screaming...penalty.

Now this ?

The decision to award the penalty frustrated Derby manager Paul Warne, who said: "I thought (the penalty) was weak." The Rams boss also revealed in his post-match press conference what referee Charles Breakspear told White after the penalty incident telling reporters: "He said to the player I am sorry if I have got that wrong. That has wound me up even more. But in games like this you can't guess."

Said it before and I'll say it again...Referees can hold the balance of promotion and relegation with a decision he thinks he may have got Wrong ? 

[Grumpy Git]

24 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Just seen the highlights.

No touch for the penalty, Referee points to the spot, He got it wrong, But can see why he gave it, Plymouth at home, Attacking, Crowd screaming...penalty.

Now this ?

The decision to award the penalty frustrated Derby manager Paul Warne, who said: "I thought (the penalty) was weak." The Rams boss also revealed in his post-match press conference what referee Charles Breakspear told White after the penalty incident telling reporters: "He said to the player I am sorry if I have got that wrong. That has wound me up even more. But in games like this you can't guess."

Said it before and I'll say it again...Referees can hold the balance of promotion and relegation with a decision he thinks he may have got Wrong ? 

It's a shameless thing to say, almost like he was on a wind-up. I'm totally flabbergasted why he would say it without actually realising he had made an enormous balls-up?

After watching it again this morning, I can only assume the Plymouth lads practice diving regularly. Dame Margot Fonteyn would have been proud of that move.

[Ramarena]

11 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Watched the game two hours behind, and have just read through the thread. My thoughts for anyone that cares.

We played really well first half. Deserved to go in one up.

There manager changed it up, twice, early in the second half, and the momentum swing was noticeable in terms of attacking intent. Warne did nothing, when a couple of substitutions would of clearly helped. We were 1 nil up and just about holding on and he was warming up Dobbin for a like for like swap! We needed more in midfield. Thompson or Springett should have come on for one of our forward players. Or he could have moved Smith into midfield and asked NML or Knight to play RB. As good as NML was first half he might as well not been on the pitch second half.

White is getting pelters, which he doesn’t really deserve. He played ok. He’s a young lad learning his trade not bloody Pirlo. He was unlucky how the ball ran for him on the first goal, and it is difficult to blame him for the penalty, although on balance I can see why it was given. As much as virtually everyone is having a go at the ref, he had a split second to decide, and for what worth I think there was some contact. We would have been screaming for a penalty in the exact same circumstances I am sure. The TV EXPERTS were broadly of the view that contact was made, and I doubt VAR would have overturned it.

The side were poor second half, compounded by baffling substitutions by Warne which didn’t ever look like improving the situation. I fully accept though he is hindered by not having any great forward replacement options - hence when we were one up he should have been shoring the midfield up to help our defence.

Some saying Matete was a horrible player. Perhaps, but we could have done with a Matete in this match.

Overall, they did deserve to win on balance. Not disappointed as I expected to lose tonight. Hopefully the Wendies and Plymouth go up as we wouldn’t want to play either in the playoffs.

We should still get into the playoffs, especially with Bird back and hopefully a fit Chester too.

We can beat any of the other 3 teams in the top 6 in the playoffs. Time though for Warne to start showing he is the League 1 Guardiola, and to start making quicker and more effective and INFLUENTIAL substitution decisions during tight, important matches.

On White, I think he was let down by the manager a bit. He’s not very good at the job he was asked to do, sit a bit deeper screen the defence and track their runners. 

That’s not really his game and it showed. When we had the ball he was more effective, but when they had the ball his positioning was ok, but he wasn’t tracking runners.
 

Several of their opportunities in the first half came from midfield runners in his area not being tracked, especially their best chance where he stood and watched the guy who had the shot break forwards, luckily they didn’t take these, but it was an accident waiting to happen so to speak.

Smith is much better at this side of the game and I was surprised by his return to RB, especially away against Plymouth.

Its a shame we are struggling in midfield since Birds injury, it’s the one area we don’t have a decent blend of players and it’s showing in results and performances. 

Looking at the rest of the team we look ok. Just midfield seems to be out of whack and CF if anything happens to McG, but it’s the midfield that destabilises everything else.

We don’t have many options to fix it unfortunately, we’re waiting on Bird’s return and in the meantime the best we can do is Smith in the defensive midfield and Rooney at RB.

[Ram-Alf]

7 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

It's a shameless thing to say, almost like he was on a wind-up. I'm totally flabbergasted why he would say it without actually realising he had made an enormous balls-up?

After watching it again this morning, I can only assume the Plymouth lads practice diving regularly. Dame Margot Fonteyn would have been proud of that move.

Sean Dyche when Burnley manager said if any of his players dive he'll fine them, Pretty sure at the time Burnley had the fewest penalties that season...if any.

We can't get away from it Grumpy...it's embedded in our game worldwide, Cheat cheat cheat and you shall prosper, I don't like it and those woeful pundits haven't the gumption to call it out.

The referee last night has now set himself up as a bit of a tit, I applaud his honesty but scowl at his stupidity at his comment.

Before we played Barnsley their manager spoke to the PGMOL telling them Barnsley have had some pretty shabby decisions over the last few games...what happened with their 1st goal? ?

[HorsforthRam]

We also struggled when pressing in ones. Not quite sure what the point is having a single midfielder trying to press their back line. At one point, Hourihane tried to press and just ran in a straight line past the defender with the ball (and carried on running for a few yards). Defender simply passed it into the vacated space and we were open. Poor organisation on the pitch. 

[angieram]

2 hours ago, HorsforthRam said:

Which players do you think could have come on and retained the ball? To me, there seemed to be a collective lack of composure, passed on from one player to the next as soon as the tempo is upped. You see it in players like Smith (whilst I understand he is playing out of position), he looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights when he hasn’t got the simple pass to NML up the line. 

I wouldn't overcomplicate things. I'd have just brought on an extra midfielder for a winger as soon as I saw what was happening on the pitch. Probably Tommo, we just needed an extra ratter in there to intercept their pretty passes and keep the ball by passing to the next man.  Rooney would have done  too, push Smith back up into midfield. 

As many have said, Mendez-Laing did nothing second half - he hardly ever saw the ball.

We play better when we're short passing and retaining possession.  Everyone criticises Bird for this but it's what keeps us starting new attacks. 

The Hollywood passes are great when they come off but they get less and less likely as the game progresses.

[BaaLocks]

Penalty was soft and the placing of the referee means he really should have seen it for what it was - he was right side of the action to clearly get a view that there was all but zero contact. We're right to feel hard done to on that but on the score it would have been a major steal if we came away with anything. They are a very good team, pass it well, move off the ball and know where their other players are. Strangely they didn't create that much in way of chances but they got enough.

Something changed in the momentum of the game about forty minutes in where every clear ball just seemed to bounce to them, they got every bounce going their way. Some may say it's because we were too tight on their players but it just always seemed to fall to them. In terms of our players it was a shame to just see NML fall out of the game again, he just seems to run out of ideas past twenty minutes. Hourihane was once more pretty invisible but he is my blamehound a bit at the moment, I admit that. Cashin was my MOTM, he pinged one ball cross field that was just filthy and, contrary to the above, his positioning meant he intercepted so much - particularly when they came back into it.

And someone needs to have a word with Wildsmith about penalties, he couldn't have signalled louder that he was (to his) right if he'd had it announced on the stadium tannoy.

I'm not getting this 'tired' bit as well, we've played as many games as the other teams, we don't have a particularly old squad. It's just that we seem to lose either attention or confidence and let teams back into games we should have by the throat. Strange really, given the likes of Hourihane (here I go again) that should be able to do that in their sleep.